Committee of Privileges Hearing on 9 December 2021 - Mr Muhamad Faisal Bin Abdul Manap (Part A): Transcript

Preamble:

What follows is a transcript (run through Otter.ai, with minimal editing - I just tagged the speakers) of the govsg video in the title.  

Though speech recognition technology has made leaps and bounds in recent years, it still isn't good enough for very accurate transcripts. So take the below as a free (for you, dear reader, at least) and rough transcript, with no warranty as to accuracy - for convenience instead of an accurate transcript. Nonetheless, I believe this will be helpful, especially for archival purposes.

If anyone wants to do or pay for manual transcription (building on the below or otherwise), that would be great. I'm not going to do 15 hours of manual transcription (with more videos almost certainly on the way).

The official transcripts may well come out publicly later. If they do, please use those instead. In the meantime, you may profit from the following; you can find links to all my COP transcripts at the index post. 

Tan Chuan-Jin:  0:00  
Let's proceed I will call the meeting to order Sergeant at Arms please invite the first witness to the witness table Mr Faisal mana?

Mr speaker Mr. Pizer is motion right now we will?

Take a seat Mr. Pfizer manner Please take your seat and for the record please state your name your occupation and the positions you hope

Faisal Abdul Manap  4:41  
not by the a bit under my name I can take my visor been under my nap. I see a full time member of Parliament.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  4:56  
Thank you the evidence that you'll be giving today before the committee will be taking Going on off. If you so desire you can also take an affirmation clock, please administer the oath or affirmation

Clerk  5:21  
the psalm on your left hand and you can raise your hand recite. I do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that evidence which I shall give before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  5:40  
Thank you. Please be seated. Welcome. Now the committee of privileges, is looking into the complaint made by the Leader of the House Miss Indrani. Raja, against former member of Sengkang GRC. Miss Raisa Han for breach of privilege. Thank you very much for attending today's hearing to give evidence before the committee and to answer the questions which members of the committee would like to put to you, you have taken a solemn obligation to answer our questions truthfully, if you refuse to answer questions directly or attempt to mislead the committee, such behavior will be an offence and in contempt with this committee. I'll now call on Mr. Desmond Lee to proceed with his questions. That's very good morning, Mr. Williams,

Desmond Lee  6:24  
as chairman had described, today's hearing, is to inquire into the statements made by the former Sengkang MP, Miss rice icon in parliament, in August, in October, and in November, with respect to an anecdote she had given which she could not substantiate, and which was false. And there are a couple of things we need to do as part of the work of the committee of privileges. The first is to determine whether or not what she said was false cannot be substantiated. And in that regard, Miss Kahn had admitted as such, both in Parliament as well as before this panel. The second thing that we have to determine is the level of culpability. That means what is the level of responsibility of misconduct in respect of what she said? And to do that we have to inquire into the facts and circumstances, what she said, why she said it? Who does she interact with? What was the advice what was said? So, we therefore have to do a fact finding to determine the level of culpability. So I'll be asking you a series of questions. And I may ask you to then provide some documentary material, whether it's on WhatsApp, email written, and so on. Okay. So just for the record, you are the Member of Parliament for alginate Jassi. Since 2011, is minister and since 2016, Workers Party vice chairman. Yes, Mr. You can just say yes, no easier for you. From September 2018 to march 2021. You were chairman of the alginate. Outcome Town Council. Yes, yes. And since April 2021. Vice Chairman Yes. Yes. And previously, you were professional freelance counselor before becoming a full time member of parliament is not during the committee of privileges work received for lots of messages and conversations between various people that's relevant to our inquiry. And I'd like to just take you through a whatsapp conversation that you had with Miss Raisa con. And this is an extract from 29, September to 29th, November 2021. beginning September, September 29, November 2021, two month pyramids and system club will put in, you can just write down the date you can write whatever you want, but he will, she will provide you with the extract. Okay, yeah.

And so let's look at page pages 12 and 13. If you look at the timeline, 30th October 2021. You see that? It is October, October, Miss Kahn messages you in the evening? Salaam Faisal, what do you think of the statement? You see that? You? Yeah. And you reply the next day, not the 30 by 31st. And you said, Sorry for not replying much earlier, I think you are doing the right thing by coming up with this statement. It is courageous of you to publicly share your past experience my full respect to you. Unquote. You see that? Yep. And by statement, quote, unquote, she's referring to the draft personal explanation for parliament on first November Is that your understanding? And you saw her message and reply was on first November, she told Parliament personal statement about Miss truths to Parliament in August and is and in October, correct?

Faisal Abdul Manap  10:09  
Yeah, the informations for the the statements for the first November statement,

Desmond Lee  10:13  
which means that before first November, you're seeing the graph person. Yes. Hence you're able to say what you said yes. And he was courageous and all that. Yeah. And then from that exchange on the 30th and 31st of October, all the way to fifth November, maybe just glance through it will take a while to look through your messages with her.

Faisal Abdul Manap  10:45  
Up to 50,

Desmond Lee  10:46  
so we fit it off. Okay. All right, you see that? My Records too. So, would I characterize the exchange all the way to fifth November, just giving her general advice, guidance, and she showed appreciation and listen to what you had to say? Yeah, it was an exchange. Yeah, correct. Now you turn to page 11. WhatsApp exchange you had with Miss Kahn, on the fifth to the seventh of October. Somewhere in the middle. Were on the fifth, you know, she's thank you on the sixth. She says, Hi, fi sa Are you free today to meet? You see that? Yes. Yeah. And then you reply at 12:17pm. And you have greetings to her. And you say apologies to the unable to. And then you she asks, and you say tomorrow afternoon, okay with you. You see that? Yes. And she says yep. Tomorrow afternoon is okay. And this would be then seventh of October. And you see seventh of October at the bottom? She says I'm here. Yeah. And at 2:28pm. Walking over two minutes. Yes. Which means that you met her at 549 burdock North is on the seventh of November.

And am I right that she sought your advice and views on what to do regarding the untrue shito in Parliament because on fourth of October, Ming Shan made a ministerial statement asking her to substantiate the anecdote she'd made in Parliament. And so she wanted to speak to you about this. Am I right? No. Then what did she what? Did she talk to you on?

Faisal Abdul Manap  12:40  
Atomicity? He has he wants to meet me. He has been wanting to meet me. Since we have another earlier message on fourth of August. Okay, we she I need to return back a bit further down. So hopefully y'all can bear with me. Yeah. So after the incident of this upsetness from the Muslim community regarding her speech on Terra focus on the polygamy as well as FDC issue. So I've been, you know, trying to give her some encouragement. And one time actually, I offered her to see to ask her whether Can I meet up with the parents? Because my concern that parent be affected? So we did make an appointment, supposedly, we're supposed to meet on the it. Okay. And then on the seventh of August, you mean yet of it of August. On the seventh, I think a demon communicate up to seventh and the seventh, I did a search, I come over and ate. Initially, she agreed to it, to meet with the parents. But on the same day, I think later in the evening, she said, she already spoken to the parents about it, and they're quite stable. So but she did mentioned to me that she wanted to seek an advice on another issue, which is on a lower issue. I say this is pregnancy one point on her job. So she asked me whether Can we meet? So I said, Okay, I'm open to her to meet up anytime. So we didn't make we didn't talk about it until on that day where she initiated this fourth or fifth of October. WhatsApp messages to six of the office. So the meetings was about about the Muslim issues. No, the meeting was about she wants to seek my advice on wanting to put on the hijab for herself. Oh, I see. And whether it has any implication because she's a public figure.

Desmond Lee  14:38  
So this was the subject matter of the media on the seventh of October. Yes. And she met you at 549.

Faisal Abdul Manap  14:45  
But there is a mountain consular officer

Desmond Lee  14:48  
and seventh of October was, you know, shortly after the parliamentary sitting on the fourth of October where she was asked by ministers Shalgam about whether the anecdote about the police was true or not. Yes. And so she didn't speak to you at all on a semi doctor about this not a word about this. Okay. Thank you can now next draw your attention to a Facebook post that Miss Kahn had put out on the eighth of August. Okay. Just invite the assistant clerk, do you have that? Maybe put it outside Thank you. Thank you see that Facebook post by Miss Kahn on social media platform dated eighth August. Maybe you take a minute to read through it. Now I'm getting familiar with get familiar. Yeah. And you're familiar with it? Because she had sent you the draft? Yes. Yes. And, and the drafts were sent to you on the eighth of August. Yes. And you had given some inputs to the draft? Yes. And the inputs were reflected in her fiscal

Faisal Abdul Manap  16:13  
plan. Not totally. She did not agree with me asking her to insert one point. Okay. Because the issue here is to, for me to tell her that to to share with the public that she's not against the Islamic ruling on this. She's more concerned of the abuse that was brought about by the by this small segment of Muslim husband who actually going through polygamy. So I told her to make the record straight. Please, literally, physically state in your statement to say that you're not against the teaching of Islam. Okay. So she decided not to. So but she did take

Desmond Lee  16:55  
on what some of your comments. Am I right?

Faisal Abdul Manap  16:59  
Yeah. Because I did get the look through the message.

Desmond Lee  17:03  
So basically, you vetted everything you had given him some suggestions? Yep. She adopted all of them, except for one point, which you've just articulated. And she explained to you why she didn't accept that point. Yes. Right. And then you just accept the her position

Faisal Abdul Manap  17:18  
as in, respect the rights to be comfortable of what she put up,

Desmond Lee  17:22  
right. Otherwise, she accepted everything you suggested. More or less. Yeah, yeah. And so that one point when she didn't agree with you, she explained to you and then you say you respect her view, and then she proceeded to post this

Faisal Abdul Manap  17:35  
in the indeed I asked. I told her twice to consider putting it in the statement.

Desmond Lee  17:42  
Okay. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. Can I next show you a whatsapp conversation between Miss Kahn and her two closest assistants? Miss low paying and Mr. UD stron Arden Are you familiar with Miss low paying and Mr. nearly destroyed as close to them, but they both party Carter's workers, party party candidates, understand yes, there. Now invite the assistant clerk to show you the extract of that WhatsApp conversation that they had. This would be dated third November and it will be in Miss loopings bundle which is submitted to the committee of privileges.

You see that in front of you? Yes. And the context of this exchange, just to give you context, because there's a lot of material in front of you and I want to give you the context. And this is in relation. So this is the third November WhatsApp exchanger third November. Okay. Yep. And the context of the exchanges that the day before on the second of November, the Workers Party had announced the formation of a disciplinary panel with Mr. Pritam Singh Miss silver limb and you as the three members of the DEP. Right. And you see, Miss loopings comment. I quote, I'm more confident they won't ask you to resign cause everyone will see them and I presume them she meant Mr. Pritam Singh Mr. Lim and you

Faisal Abdul Manap  19:31  
so slowly Mr. You see that which which patient

Desmond Lee  20:01  
This is page 1656 You see that 165 A third November 3:42pm, eight seconds. You see that 340 to 342 of em, paying, paying with them with them to be more confident that's they won't ask you to see that. Cause everyone will see them as backstabbers and then Miss Raisa, can't. Is Reiser WP? Right? 3:49pm. Honestly, the only one I think would never betray me in that way is Faisal. I'm grateful that he's on the panel. So this is what this is the view she had of you. Even though you want the display panel? Yes.

Faisal Abdul Manap  20:50  
But I don't understand what what she meant by you will never betray her.

Desmond Lee  20:56  
Yeah, but that's what she said to two assistants. Yeah. So I'm just showing that to you, as part of the context, and we'll come back to the display panel later. And so just bear that in mind somewhere. Okay. Now, Miss Kahn is first time MP for the Workers Party. Yes. First time, she's a member of parliament. And she's 28 years old, roughly. And just over one year of experience as a member of parliament. Yes. Can you look at the transcript by Miss Raisa can? Second December, page 106 things in front of you?

Second of December, material, page 106. You have that in front of me? Yes. And you see Mr. Edwin Tong says right. I understand. Thank you some way 1/3 down the way. Good. Would it be fair to say Miss Kahn that you play some stock in the guidance that senior members of the party would give you Mr. Singh Miss limb? Mr. Mr. Pfizer? manok. Correct. And Miss Raisa cancer is correct. And Mr. Tang says and I think that's the reason why you went to them in the first place. Correct? And you see, she says Correct. You see that partner? Yes. Yeah. And so as the vice chairman of the Workers' Party, and just looking at the exchange you've had with her? And the comments you've made about you? Would it be the case that she generally listened to instructions, advice from you from the leaders of the party, the seniors? She's such a person generally. Yeah. And if told to do something important, she would follow instructions, generally,

Faisal Abdul Manap  22:49  
not based on my experience, because I did tell her about the the comment that she made on Facebook. So there are times where she did kind of like have her own her own view views of things

Desmond Lee  23:00  
before that one, which is the basis of what you're saying, now. She had explained to you why she disagreed with your suggestion. Yeah. And then you then decided that you respect her views in a

Faisal Abdul Manap  23:15  
way that discipline to address ministers point that she always listened to us. I disagree to that.

Desmond Lee  23:22  
I say generally, generally, yeah. Can I just now make a general point about CRP and what we're doing here? Before I go into into the evidence in all witnesses, before the CRP are both under oath or affirmation, as you just undertaken to tell the truth, and that has legal significance is Mr. The Corp his role is to do fact finding, as I articulated earlier, find out the circumstances, find out culpability, and make recommendations to Parliament, and we'll lay it all before Parliament. But if testimony given under oath by different witnesses is starkly different, then we'll need to inquire what really happened. Try to get at what the truth is, and may have to assign weight to what one person says versus what another person says you understand. And it's 10 variables. And of course, other agencies may need to conduct their own inquiries as to what the truth may be, especially if, you know, this is under oath or affirmation, indeed. And so what the CLP really wants to establish is the truth of the matter. From all the witnesses, including yourself very clear. Yeah, thank you. Know, can I just for place marker, because all this really started on the third of August. You recall the Workers Party motion by Miss hurting ruin, Mr. Leon Pereira in parliament on women's empowerment? Yes, yes. And Miss Karna told an anecdote about the treatment of a sexual assault survivor by the police. 

Faisal Abdul Manap  24:43
Yes, yes. And Mrs. Desmond Tan had asked her to substantiate the allegation because the police said this was his view. This was a serious matter. And the police needed to check what happened. Yes, yes. And misconduct The incident did happen. Yes, yes. And you were in parliament in chamber when you said that. In you also heard Miss Indrani. Raja Leader of the House rise to reiterate all MPs the importance of being able to substantiate serious allegations made against anyone outside parliament, including public officers. Yes, yes. Thank you. Now, can I just trouble you to turn to the transcript of second December by Miss Raisa can page 86. It's what you have in front of you, but go to page 86. You have that Nissan, and you see somewhere just underneath the middle, mispriced? I can't thank you. So the first conversation that I had with any party leadership, that the first time that I gave any sense that it was an untruth was on seventh August. And it was a short phone call, which then was followed by meeting at Pritam Singh's house with the chairman silver limb and vice chairman Pfizer mana, you see this? Yes, yeah. And so Mr. Tong goes on to our seventh August, there was a short phone call only with Pritam Singh. His current replies, Yes. You see that? Yes. Were you aware of this phone call? And not at the point in time, seventh August after that. Were you told about this phone call? No. And but you know, now today, are you aware about it today? Yeah. Did anyone tell you prior to today that there was this phone call that Miss Kahn made to Mr. Pritam Singh, to tell him that what she said in Parliament was untrue.

Faisal Abdul Manap  26:41  
Okay. I don't recall being told about the phone call. Okay.

Desmond Lee  26:45  
But, you know, now that this anecdote about police, police treatment of this sexual assault survivors, it was false, that Miss Kahn didn't accompany such a survivor to the police station. And in your view, lying to Parliament, making a strong allegation about the police, which cannot be substantiated in your view is in a very serious matter, serious misuse matter. Thank you. Can I now talk about this eighth August meeting at Mr. Singh's house? And I just brought you through that transcript? And eighth August 2021 is a Sunday. Right? Yes, it's a Sunday. And and so am I right that Miss Raisa con, Miss silver limb and yourself went to Mr. Pritam Singh's house? Yes. Yes. And this will be in the morning. Can you remember?

Faisal Abdul Manap  27:39  
quite accurately. 11 o'clock.

Desmond Lee  27:41  
11 in the morning, roughly? Who arranged this meeting? Do you know Mr. Pritam? And how did he arrange it? He called you he messaged you email you

Faisal Abdul Manap  27:51  
basically, again, allow me to explain how it comes to this point. Okay. Basically, I've been having WhatsApp messages exchanged with Reiser, as I mentioned, regarding the impact of a speech on the Muslim issue. Yes. So and we spoke, as I mentioned earlier, was supposed to meet her on the

Desmond Lee  28:12  
eighth. Yes. Which is the day when you met? Yes, at the house.

Faisal Abdul Manap  28:15  
But it was kind of like change. During the latest convocation. I had not mistaken the date on this, when much earlier, she said not to have me at house. So the next morning, I received a message from Peter Mackay before that also was giving my views not only to rise up to pre terms on the commandment by Muslim community online countries, so I keep on updating them, you know, because it's of concern to me. So, on the seventh, so Pritam kind of decided during the commission before seven or under seven itself that we need to do something about it to come up with DME statement. Yeah. So I told her that why don't we meet during the conversation, where do we meet at a house to talk about this? So we agreed to meet Tim Pritam messaged me somewhere on the eighth itself in the morning. But it in the morning, and he told me that okay, come over to my house, we can talk about this. So that is the My understanding upon in time that I'm there to meet with them. Okay, and the rest to talk about the two issues that was delivered by Miss Han during the motion.

Desmond Lee  29:37  
So am I right, say on the eighth of August, you say roughly about 830. In the morning, you receive a whatsapp text from Mr. Pritam Singh. Yes. And this WhatsApp text, I presume would suggest that you come to his house on that very day. Yes, yes. And he suggested a time or you suggested the time 11am roughly 10 should be him. He suggested and did he say in the text What the meeting was likely to be about?

Faisal Abdul Manap  30:02  
Because my understanding on the prior to that date, right, we are supposed to talk about the issue of coming up with a statement on the FDC and the polygamy issue. So that was my understanding then.

Desmond Lee  30:12  
So prior to this eighth of August message to arrange for the meeting on that very day, prior to that, on the seventh on the sixth on the fifth on the fourth, on the third of August, were the exchanges between you and Mr. Pritam Singh about what Miss Kahn had said in Parliament on the third of August. Yes, but But FDC and the polygamy not about the legacy and Emily's okay, but nothing to do with the sexual assault survivor. No, no. Okay. Would you be able to subsequent to this interview be able to provide us with the relevant exchanges on your underwear? Yes, yes. Sure. With regards to the discussion on the Muslim issue, I mean, if somebody is sensitive, you can discuss with the parliamentary staff, right, it could be some position, but you want to know what it was about, and that there was no discussion, as you say, about the sexual assault survivor? Yes. And also the messages on the eighth of August itself, arranging for this meeting? Yeah, yeah. Thank you. So prior to you reaching Mr. Singh's house on at about 11am. On the eighth of August. Would it be right to say that there was no discussion that you had with Mr. Singh or Mr. Lim about the meeting on the Eighth Amendment? That means on the eighth you received that message? Yeah. And then you went to his house before you arrived the house? There was no further discussion. Don't recall any don't recall. But you check your messages, just to be sure. Yeah, you mean now? No, later, okay. So let's turn to the eighth of August meeting proper. If you recall. When you arrive was Miss Kahn already there or you're right before?

Faisal Abdul Manap  32:02  
I think she she came? She came in the ministry. The last two came

Desmond Lee  32:08  
to the ladder. Right. Yeah. Which means that when you arrive, Mr. Singh, of course, welcome you as his home and his civilian was already there. Yeah. Yeah. So of the three workers, party leaders who met that morning, you were the last to arrive? Yes. Yes. And prior to miss Kahn, coming into the house. Did you all discuss what was going to be raised later when she arrived? I don't think so. She didn't. So you just chatted about other things. Yeah. Can I just draw your attention to that same bundle in front of you second dizember transcript of this race, I can't evidence to this committee page 87 and 88. So you just the next page? You have that in front of you? Yeah. And somewhere at the top. And at this occasion, Muslim and Mr. Pfizer manner were present. And Miss Kahn says yes. Mr. Admin told us and did you put in clear terms to them as well, that the statement you had made was false. Miss Kahn? Yes. Mr. Tong asked, Could they have misunderstood? Miss Kahn replies? No, they could not. So can you confirm she told your clearly that what she said in Parliament on the third of August with respect to the sexual assault survivor was false. It clearly means admission. She told you that she said something about sexual assault survivor. Yeah, she had a company, this 25 year old sexual assault survivor came three years ago to police station, and then she came out crying. That statement to Parliament. She told y'all was not true.

Faisal Abdul Manap  33:51  
Can basically what they can recall it. She said that she lied in Parliament regarding that particular part of speech and sexual assault. Tell me share with you what she told us. What, by what?

Desmond Lee  34:02  
Yes, thank you. And if you look at page 88, and 89. And Mr. Tong says I quote and that she, in this case, Miss low paying, he felt that in some ways you had come clean and disclose to the senior leadership in the Workers Party. And she felt that they would handle the matter and decide the appropriate course, in a sense, leaving it in the hands of the senior members of the party. In her words, she called Mr. Singh, a seasoned politician. Would that also have been your impression Miss Kansas? Yes. Mr. Tong then goes on. That would have been the reason why you went to them to tell them in the first place and get counsel and guidance, correct. Correct. And so what miscarried is saying is that, apart from being very clear to the three of you that she had lied about the sexual assault survivor in Parliament, that she went to see the three of you to seek advice and guidance and come clean on what she had done to you, and to seek your guidance and advice on what to do next. Correct. This your understanding of what she's saying? Yes, yes. And can I confirm with you, Mr. Faisal that roughly about 11am On the eighth of August 2021 was the first time you had heard about the sexual assault survivor anecdote being untrue. Yes. And first time at from Miss rice icons. own selfie first time hearing from her directly or from anyone else? Yes. And so looking at this exchange, I just described that she had gone to see the three of you at Mr. Singh's house to come clean with the three of you and of course, for you hearing it for the first time that shed light and that she wanted to seek guidance advice direction on what to do. Yes. I'm not sure why she was this way. She said this. She says thank you. And can you just look further down?

Let me just pointed out to you.

Miss Kahn said that Mr. Pritam Singh's initial response was that she should go to the committee of privileges, sorry, I mean, find the exact page for you?

initial response was to go to the committee's privileges.

Yep, page 87. You see that somewhere beneath the first half? You see the Miss Raisa can or take you through? Mr. bintang. It means you can get away with it. We don't need to clarify the line. Miss Can I think in a simplest terms? Yes, you're correct, Mr. Edwin Tong. So the Workers Party leadership was present. Their initial response to being told there was a lot of falsehood said in Parliament was to try and duck the issue if possible. If it doesn't come up, then the truth will not be told eventually correct Miss Kahn, and here this year. I have to say though, that Pritam Singh's initial response was that I should go to the committee of privileges. You see that? I see that Yeah. So you see her say that? You see that set the line? So did you hear that? That when she told the line, Mr. Singh's initial response was please, please go to camino. To clarify. No, he didn't say that. And then you go on to the rest of the sentence. And I quote, Miss consise after discussions and her explaining the circumstances that led her to the inflammation in the first place that changed

Faisal Abdul Manap  39:19  
soil inclusion. I couldn't I couldn't follow you.

Desmond Lee  39:24  
So page 87 and 70. So Miss Kahn. I have to say though, that Pritam Singh's initial response was that I should go to the committee of privileges Correct. You see that? Yes. But after discussions and me explaining the circumstances that led me to the information in the first place that changed

Faisal Abdul Manap  39:41  
you see that? I do

Desmond Lee  39:43  
yeah. So in short, she's she's saying that she had told Mr. Pritam Singh MITSUBA limb and yourself that she had lied in parliament on third of August about the Sexual assault survivor, right? You said yes. You heard your shed session the session and that from her recollection the first thing that miss the Pritam Singh told her was go to the committee have privileges ie come clean. Explain, tell the untruth this opposition didn't the police didn't take place about committee or privileges. Can I show you the WhatsApp message and this is exhibit cop nine that Miss can send to low paying and Mr. You destroy Nothern on Eighth of August trail 40 1pm. System clapper put it in front of you

you see that? This is a solid extract 23 delivering a reading glass is a bit small. May I read it to you? And if you have any doubt someone can read it for you as well. You can see roughly Yeah. Can I before I bring you to that? You said you met around 11 o'clock that morning? Yes, yes. On the eighth of August. Yes. And there wasn't a very long meeting or short meeting the last about an hour an hour. So sewer 11 ended about shellfish chop something at noon. And then all of your left except Mr. Singh, of course is home. Yes, yes. And so you look at this message here. I know it's small, but eighth of August 2021 12:41pm. You see that? Right at the top of box 23.

Faisal Abdul Manap  41:43  
In the top, top portion, right.

Desmond Lee  41:45  
Yes, Raisa WP echo. Hey, guys. I just met with Pritam, Silvia and Faisal. And we spoke about the Muslim issues and the police accusation. Correct. So she's this is your collection, she spoke about both issues, Muslim issues, which she in your view as the FJC and polygamy and the police accusation of sexual assault survivor, correct? Yes. And carry on what she says I told them what I told you guys, and they agreed that the best thing to do is to take the information to the grave. They also suggested that I write a statement to send out this evening, unquote. And then you see her very next message at 12:42pm. You see directly below that. And this is, in my view, sorry, directly beneath the first message. Is not there. It's not here. No. Okay. Nevermind. It's okay.

Faisal Abdul Manap  42:41  
Only got a portion, that

Desmond Lee  42:42  
portion, right. So you see that message she sent out at 12:41pm 241? Yes, yes. And would you agree that this was very shortly after that meeting in Mr. Pritam Singh's house with with you and Mr. William?

Faisal Abdul Manap  43:00  
Yeah. Should I finish at about 12. So the message that till 4131

Desmond Lee  43:04  
Yeah. And that if you look at this, she was sending this to her closest assistants, Miss sloping. And Mr. Yudish? Correct. Yes, yes. And her reference to I quote, writing a statement to send out this evening, unquote, right. Would you agree this was that post I just showed you about? That she wrote on Eighth of August, talking about what she said about Muslim issues. Yes. Which you had the exchange messages with her about? Correct. So when she said they suggested I write a statement to center this evening is true, you had suggested, or three of us suggested somehow that she write a statement to put out on Muslim issues. Yes. So that was correct. That part of the message was accurate, accurate. But on the point about her saying, take the matter to the grave. Do you agree that this is a great summary of what she said? Absolutely disagree with her. Then why not to tell us what each of you told Miss Kahn on the eighth of August, in respect of the sexual assault survivor anecdote that she had explained to you. So you're hearing this for the first time on Eighth of August. Right? She tells you that she told an untruth in Parliament about the sexual assault survivor. Yes. What was Mr. Singh's advice, response direction, whatever. What did he say during that meeting? Right? Yes.

Faisal Abdul Manap  44:35  
Okay. Basically, she came at about 11 or 11 ish and reset together for us. So she start off by saying that Pritam AR your daughter's around. And then she kind of like the preterm to possible get the.he started to be in the room. So he wants to say something since If. So she started off by saying that she was when she was 18 studying in Australia. And she broke down very badly. So personally, I'm taken aback. I'm kind of like my counseling instinct, instinct. Just come to me. So I kind of like, want to intensely new want to hear to hear hear more regarding the she told us about. Right. So then she, if I recall that she didn't mention after that. So what I mentioned in parliament is and proof is untrue. She mean, she's Yeah. So there's quite a silence to the situation. And because I was taken aback, I mean, I don't know how to react, because she opened up her account or shame by saying that she was at age of 18. And here I am, you know, my click, when particularly open up to us, of course, very, very standard and very shocked to hear this from her. So, basically, that happened. And the focus after it was more to comfort her because she was crying. I mean, crying badly. So, that's where Peter mentioned that no, okay, who else knew about it? So she mentioned four people. She mentioned Yudish Miss Lowe being caught being her therapist, and husband. So, Mr. Pritam did us up with us, whether your parents aware of this? She said no. Yeah. So, this the whole discussion and I kind of like come in, tell her that, you know, are you receiving any treatment, or, you know, attending any counseling, you know, as I mentioned, is distinctively as a, as a form of counseling or a kind of, like, bring myself out and offer my help. And it mentioned to her if she wants to go for counseling and willing to, to do to do one for her, and also to bring in an assertive female Regis teacher to, you know, to partner with me to go through, basically, to assist in the matter. Yeah. So it takes quite a while. For me, preterm and severe, you know, tried to console in a conference.

Desmond Lee  47:47  
Yeah. Right. So just to recap, when she arrived, she asked Mr. Singh's daughters, you know, not to be present. Right. So they went into the room, correct? Yeah. And she told y'all, first thing she said was about her own assault. She said she didn't talk about the Muslim issues yet. Not yet. So first thing was about her assault. And then she said that, yeah, the anecdote she told in Parliament was come true. And what did she say about the anecdote in Parliament? What else? Do you recall?

Faisal Abdul Manap  48:26  
This is short. A short digression that she said that she was untrue.

Desmond Lee  48:32  
Did Mr. Singh Muslim yourself ask Miss Kahn more about the

Faisal Abdul Manap  48:41  
untruth? No, because as I mentioned, we are quite affected, we personally affected listen to her confession on terms of she's so as a machinist know, instinctively you know, my counseling. I don't know what I mean, spirit or counseling or anything.

Desmond Lee  49:01  
Right counselor was asked whether she's reading treatment, whether she

Faisal Abdul Manap  49:05  
told me that her well being is most important at that point in time, okay. And you

Desmond Lee  49:09  
said that Mr. Singh's response to her was Who else knew about this assault? And she said, Mr. You destroy northern Miss low paying her therapist and her husband, correct? Correct. Right. And she Mr. Singh also asked her whether her parents were away and she said no. Yes. What did what was Mr. Williams immediate response? If you can recollect,

Faisal Abdul Manap  49:32  
I think, in general, is showing concern. I can't remember what exactly Sylvia mentioned, but the main thing that drove us did, the point in time, is tried to convert her.

Desmond Lee  49:44  
Right. And after that, said, What else transpired during that meeting apart from she she shared this very shocking news about her assault. Then she said that She had told the untruth in Parliament about another survivor that she's spoken about. And the three of you were focused on her well being, as you say about her own assault in the what else was discussed,

Faisal Abdul Manap  50:15  
then I guess my purpose of going to attend the session on the right to sue to put closure on FDC. And polygamy, that's what I discuss with her. Even when we don't know we're going to meet on the eighth. But to me and Pritam did mention to predominate, to put a closure to this closure means she needs to come up with a statement. Okay, so after things torn down, I cannot I suddenly bring up the issue that we need to talk a bit more about this, because at the end, I know she, she is the fact that she was affected by that. She, because I've been in connections with her since on the afternoon, after the speech elements. Yeah, so I'm aware that she's not so very comfortable about the attention public attention that she's, you know, facing. Okay, so I need to do my part. Okay, for her, as well as for for the party itself, because there's a lot of comments, you know, about her speech. So I brought up the issue that we need to settle this. On the issue of FDC. And polygamy, right. That's why, you know, it was stated that she came out, she informed yudishe and Mr. That, you know, she was totally a statement and sent out in the evening itself on Rocky.

Desmond Lee  51:35  
Yeah. Okay. So you're saying that she talked about her own assault, and that was shocking. Yeah. And you're spent time to know, to find out more information to offer, check whether she'd been treated, counseled, is so concerned. And that was the conclusion of the discussion that morning about her own assault, correct? Yes, there was no decision on what to do with regards to her assault 10 years ago, this notion. And she also told you all that she had told her miss an untruth in Parliament, correct? Yes. I'll come to that in a while. But then what you're telling me is that also discussed that morning, at some point when she started to come down, and she could have a discussion on other things that you talked about the issue of FJC female genital cutting, as well as polygamy, polygamy that she had raised on the third of August in her speech. Yes. And you wanted to raise that after she had come down? Because that was what you thought she'd wanted to discuss with you about.

Faisal Abdul Manap  52:46  
Yeah, that's what the this the discussion was supposed to be right on that day.

Desmond Lee  52:50  
And whose suggestion was it to put out a statement that day? On the eighth of August, okay, I

Faisal Abdul Manap  52:57  
spoke to me and I didn't speak with them. I was what's going on with PETA on the seventh. So this this way, I told them that she needs to come up with her own statement.

Desmond Lee  53:08  
So you're saying that on the seventh of August, ie the day before this meeting on the eighth Yes. You have been discussing via WhatsApp? Yes. Pritam Singh, that she had to address these

Faisal Abdul Manap  53:20  
issues, even during from estimations not from third to seventh Eben was messaging preterm, as well as Reiser, yes, updating them about the community's views and concerns that being put on social media. I mean, the comments?

Desmond Lee  53:35  
Yes. So I'm just saying on the eighth of August, on this issue of the FJC. And polygamy, you had raised it. So it was you who raised it, not miss Kahn. Right? No, you raised it to her and she was already Yeah. And use what do you tell her? You see, this is an issue which the committee was concerned about, you must address it.

Faisal Abdul Manap  53:58  
And she she knows about it, she aware of it, and she's aware about it. And also, just to add on a bit further down when we had the disciplinary panel interview with her. She did mention that she was actually contemplating whether to display to show how constant she was about the issue.

Desmond Lee  54:21  
Yeah, I think we focus on the eighth of August and the DP, you want to talk about it later, we

Faisal Abdul Manap  54:25  
can come to link Okay, go ahead. Okay. So, to show that what kind of state of mind she was, during the period three to seventh of August oxwich, I decided that you know, we need to address this. Again, my concern is about her and her how the implication towards the family. So on the third, I mean, it was a

Desmond Lee  54:45  
family as in the awareness of because I raised in regard to what she had said in Parliament. Yeah, about FGC and polygamy because

Faisal Abdul Manap  54:52  
the back my mind, as we know her father is Mr. Farahan is a committee, one of the committee leader So I do understand, you know, there might be certain concern and a parser. For that is good enough for me is right for me to, to meet up with them and to talk about the issue. Right. So So was back, just want to point out one point that how the mental state she was in back then from three to seven and why I actually brought it up on the eighth that we must do something about the this issue. So she did mention to us, between among the three of us Pritam, Sylvia and myself that she was contemplating to resign as an MP because she felt that she being a liability to the party because of the speech, which is about FDC and polygamy. So that was the state of mind back then. from third to seventh of August 2021. Yeah. Okay. This is what she told us during the meeting on the 2020 Latina the second interview that we had with the law, basically, of what month 28 or 29, the second of November? Yeah. During the DP, MRI, can I just take my notes? Yeah, sure.

Desmond Lee  56:12  
Can I check those notes prepared by yourself? Yes, I did. Is it the man able to provide a copy? Because you're referring to it for your testimony? Can? Yep, can you get a copy from provide a copy to the system club, so that we can refer to but I do have only one copy, we can make a copy. Okay, so that we can

think Mr. Faisal, when you're giving evidence, you should be giving evidence from your best recollection rather than material that may be provided necessarily by you, because we want to make sure that this is your evidence on affirmation and not other people's. So I

Faisal Abdul Manap  56:55  
do remember that in one of this session, I think, if not mistaken, the 2009 where she met us. She didn't mention that she wants to she was contemplating to resign because of this issue that, you know, that she brought up in Parliament. And she felt that she's a liability to the party. So this, that's where my point.

Desmond Lee  57:14  
So she was very seized with the issue of what she said about Muslim issues

Faisal Abdul Manap  57:19  
about, you know, the command and, you know, direction from the community.

Desmond Lee  57:23  
Right. Yeah. So, therefore, on the eighth of August, after she had come down, about her recollection, or relating to y'all about her sexual assault, is that you then raise this issue of what she said about FJC. And FGC, and polygamy on third of August. Yes. And was it you who then suggested to her that she put up a post on the eighth of August,

Faisal Abdul Manap  57:47  
because it's a what I've discussed is preterm, and personally, I did. I do feel that, you know, she needs to clear she must clear the air, clear the air. And and this, to me, basically say what she wants to say that this is supposed to be her statement.

Desmond Lee  58:02  
So basically, what I'm saying is that what you're telling us is that on the eighth of August, you raised the matter. And you had then asked her to put up a post a statement. Yes. And she agreed with you. Yes. And did Mr. Singh and Miss Lim also agree with you and Miss Kahn on that cause of action? Now? They were there. They were there and they object? Yeah. Did they say yes, this

Faisal Abdul Manap  58:23  
is a good thing to do. Yeah. As I mentioned that this what was discussed? Yeah.

Desmond Lee  58:29  
So seventh of August, y'all had discussed your disgust with Pritam. Through us through WhatsApp. What time was that? On the seventh of August. Company? Was it a night? I really can't remember the timing. Okay, seventh of August, you had already agreed with him that the best course was for Miss Kahn to put out a post. Yeah, to explain her position. And therefore on the eighth when you suggested that cause of action, Miss Carla greet. You knew that Mr. Singh would not object because you had already discussed the day before. How about party chairman Islam? She didn't say

Faisal Abdul Manap  59:02  
any basically, not so sure. Her attendance there. Because the convocation with the main protagonist, we need to discuss about this party's issues. Yeah. So So I believe that she never update. So she's there.

Desmond Lee  59:16  
Yeah. Right. So in a way, what Miss Kahn said in that WhatsApp message. They also suggested that I write a statement to send out this evening is correct. Correct. So, so that was what you did as a sum total of what you discussed with Miss carne on the eighth of August from 11. To chop, chop 11am to 12pm. Roughly, yes. You had, of course comforted her with regards to what she related about her sexual assault. Yes. And then you talk to her about the the Muslim issues that she's spoken about. Yes. And you suggested she put up a poll she agreed. There was some total of your involvement that Yes. What about the issue of Lying to Parliament on the third of August with regards to the sexual assault survivor that she allegedly accompany to the police station. Was that not something y'all discuss? Because you said that it was the first time she told the three of you, at least right from for you. That was the first time that you had heard about her telling an untruth in Parliament. Yeah. Did you not raise this point? Why did you not raise this point? Because

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:00:30  
as a mission is now the first is that you are taken back. Okay? And she'll open up not telling us that the thing was untruth. The what she told in Parliament was untrue, but she told us, she she opened up a statement by saying that she's okay. So the focus, as I mentioned, is now that we are concerned about her, we can kind of console her, you know, try to calm her down. So and after Well, as I mentioned, now, my part comes in and realize that we need to settle this issue, because the thing that was a bit mean, there's really upset, upset, I mean, the Muslim committee was very upset about the whole issue. So that is what we have discussed on that day. And we didn't actually pursue them method on on the delay. Regarding the the light that she mentioned about the process called escorting the victims to the police, which you mentioned that we didn't discuss

Desmond Lee  1:01:25  
it, then on the eighth of August. So let me just be very clear, it is current comes in to Mr. Singh's house on the eighth of August. One of the first thing she says apart from asking Mr. Singh's daughters to be in the room away from the conversation, yes. Was that she had been sexually assaulted. And that was very shocking to all of you. Yes. And then the next thing she says, is about her lying to Parliament about that. anecdote. Correct. These are the two things she talked about. So two things One was her own assault and the other one was her untruth to Parliament. Yes. Right. And you're saying that all your talked about, what about her own assault? And about Muslim issues? There was no other conversation? Yeah. So but you recall that she had raised this issue about the lie in Parliament. In the you recall, it was in your mind at the time? Yes. And so you settled the her salt in terms of comforting her? Yes. Making sure she was supported. And you talked about Muslim issues? You You didn't address the big issue of her lying in Parliament? No, no. How about Mr.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:02:36  
Singh? Did he address your election? As I mentioned, there was a silence Okay, what I shared earlier. So what happened was what actually took place? So we did not further discuss on the issue of the line, which she uttered, in which she said in it, we

Desmond Lee  1:02:55  
did not further discuss means all four of your Yeah, did not at all, raise the issue of lying. No. in Parliament. No. Neither Miss Lim nor Mr. Singh, no. astir abandoned. And this was a one hour conversation is focused principally about her assault, which she raised. When she talked about Sue, where she talked about her assault. Y'all responded to her. Right? Not immediately, because you're shocked were shocked. But the response was about her assault. Yeah. Then she raised about her lying in Parliament. none of y'all discussed this. No, no. Right. No discussion. And then when then she didn't raise it. But you raised the issue of polygamy and fgcs. Right. And then how did the meeting end? What was the conclusion? What was your takeaway from the meeting? Maybe three

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:03:47  
for me is as what are some instance in the in her WhatsApp? Right. Okay. We agreed upon that she need to come up with a statement and to have it in, in a Facebook. Yeah.

Desmond Lee  1:04:02  
Okay. So your takeaway from that one hour meeting there abouts was that? Firstly, of course, you heard about her assault. Yep. You are now, on the eighth of August aware that she'd like to Parliament? Yes. Yes. Yes. And thirdly, that you had raised on your own volition and settled the issue of Muslim issues. Yes, that was that was my

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:04:22  
main concern. When I you attended the session? I mean, the discussion? Yes, it

Desmond Lee  1:04:27  
becomes our nevertheless, apart from that issue, which you went to Mr. Singh's house to talk about which is the Muslim issues. You will now at a point in time, in possession of two other startling facts. Correct. One was Mrs. Khan had herself been sexually assaulted. Yes. Right. And which you said earlier that it was shocking. And the other thing that was also news to you totally, you know, new to you was that she had lied in Parliament about the anecdote about the sexual assault survivors. She accompany to the police station. Yeah. So you went away with two additional pieces of information. Yeah.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:05:07  
They just kind of give my view on on the statement made by Mr. Issa on page 87. You mean her transcript? Yeah. Transcript? Yes. Go ahead. Good. It was Mr. assumption that somewhere in middle the patient was mentioned that it was incredible disappointment. There was a lot of anger. But I think there was some compassion there as well. I disagree. And she mentioned there was a lot of anger. Just want to point out that basically, I feel strongly about that. There's no anger or

Desmond Lee  1:05:40  
from all three of you. Yes. To what, sir? Yeah. For lying in Parliament? No.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:05:45  
As I mentioned, the sequence started as she admitted, she Confederacy's being

Desmond Lee  1:05:52  
taken aback. You're very shocked. Yes. Yeah.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:05:55  
And I'm not. It's not I'm not comfortable. I feel it. You know, she was not telling the truth. And she said there was a lot of anger. Okay, there wasn't any anger or

Desmond Lee  1:06:03  
so what would you describe was sharp shock? Miles?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:06:07  
Okay. Compassion is Yes. Any kind of loss of how to react so because you know, this is due to shop.

Desmond Lee  1:06:16  
So you're saying that when she told you that, the and Mr. Singh and Mr. Slim that she had told an untruth in parliament that she could not substantiate and which was false. You had no reaction whatsoever to that you weren't true to them?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:06:30  
No, because they were overwhelmed by the first point where she brought up. Okay. Mean, naturally, when someone mentioned about the trauma that they had, and followed by say that she lied. Okay. I mean, put ourselves between me and my daughter. Further, I was by luck to you.

Naturally, as human being I think we feel that, you know, you feel overwhelmed by the first statement, that was first confession that was made.

So I'm trying to say that there's no anger, because we are overwhelmed by the feeling of shock.

Desmond Lee  1:07:11  
Yep. So can I just take you through what you've just said? That means the first thing she said was she was, as you say, she was sexually assaulted. Right. And y'all felt shock and then compassion towards her. The other thing she says, and this were the only two things that you are telling us, she said, on Eighth of August, that she had lied to Parliament. Yes. And so you're saying that there was no reaction by you or the other two party leaders with respect to that? Yeah. And then after that, yes or no? Yes.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:07:43  
I was referring again. Yeah. I brought it up, because I feel you know, it was untrue. To say that there was a lot of anger.

Desmond Lee  1:07:51  
So So you're saying you will not upset that Miss Kahn had said that she had lied to Parliament?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:07:56  
I'm saying that this I'm not angry, because it's there was a claim made here that there was a lot of anger.

Desmond Lee  1:08:03  
She's saying in the context of her telling y'all about her untruth in Parliament.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:08:09  
No, she she she mentioned that. It was a incredible disappointment. There was a lot of anger. But I think there was some compassion. It comes from what basically I believe that she's she ran out of how we felt at that point in time, when she was often the sequence by submission to the sequence that she admitted for it. She confessed of being

Desmond Lee  1:08:29  
yet her. Her traumatic experience. Yes,

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:08:33  
yeah. And so, again, this this troubled me, page 87, which she mentioned that she there was a lot of anger. This something I want to highlight, which I don't think is the truth, which it is seven.

Desmond Lee  1:08:52  
Maybe I take you through line by line. Yeah. Look at the top. Mr. Tong? And did you put in clear terms to them as well, that the statement that you had made was false. That statement was about the anecdote. Before? Yes. Sorry. Which one? Is this page 87/5 line from the top. Mr. Edwin Tong? And did you put it in clear terms to them? The statement you had made was false. You see that this statement was false was the anecdote. She said in Parliament. A lot the police Yes, Miss can Yes. Mr. Tong, could they have misunderstood Miss Carr? No, they could not. They could not. Mr. Tong. What was the reaction to this to this means to the fact that she had told you all that the anecdote was false in Parliament. And her reply was, it was incredible disappointment. There was a lot of anger. But I think there was some compassion there as well. The reaction was that if I were not to be pressed, then the best thing to do would be to retain the narrative that I have. began in August. So just take it one step at a time. Okay. Do you agree that when Mr. Tong asked Miss Kahn, did you put in clear terms that the statement was false? Semi was responding to Mr. Tongs question about her anecdote? Yes. So when she she sang to CRP, when she told you all that the anecdote was false. Your reaction was incredible disappointment and a lot of anger to the false anecdote to the false anecdote. So my question to you is, what was your response? When you heard her talk about the false anecdote in Parliament?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:10:41  
Can I clear make things clear? Your estimation, the sequence was, she confirmed she admitted, she confessed, but she told us about that immediately. She mentioned that she lied in Parliament. So one after another, there's no you know, silence in between.

Desmond Lee  1:11:03  
She related the two things to your Yes, yes. And you reacted to the her her telling you that she was a victim of sexual assault survivor.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:11:13  
Yes. This means that one after another. Yes. Like, suddenly, I was very busy to assert synthetics. Yes, I brought to

Desmond Lee  1:11:22  
the correct but you heard two things. One, she was a survivor of

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:11:26  
the sequence that came first her confession of her been. So human emotions, you know, as I mentioned to you, naturally, we feel something for we feel deeply

Desmond Lee  1:11:42  
consolation to her purse, a traumatic experience as a survivor.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:11:47  
Yes. And sorry. Sorry, mister. And I couldn't agree more about a capitally. I can't agree when you say anger, because I know myself.

Desmond Lee  1:11:56  
Yes. So that you you were compassionate towards her own traumatic experience in it. But you had no emotion at all about the other thing that she had shared with your submission?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:12:09  
I was overwhelmed. Yeah. And they give you the example of meals, if I'm talking to my daughter. She mentioned she's being you know, just

touch with a lick. And after that, she said, I lied to you. Naturally, if you are being more than by the feeling of

Desmond Lee  1:12:27  
sympathy, yes. So accept that what this what you're saying to the corp that you're telling us that you were overwhelmed by her sharing her own experience as a survivor of sexual assault? And that, am I right to say that you're telling us that you therefore, did not think or feel anything about the second part of her statement, which was a false anecdote, indeed. Because you were overwhelmed by the first piece of industrial shit, one after another. Yes. And but you told us earlier, Mr. Faisal, that at some point in time you felt that the discussion about her being a survivor and false anecdote had come down, she had come down for you to move on to the next order of business. In the end. Here was the meeting where she told you she was a sexual assault survivor, and that she had lied in Parliament. And then without her, bring it up. At some point in time, things come down. And you could then bring up this topic of FGC and polygamy. Yes. So when things that come down, did you not then address the issue of her falsehood to Parliament? No, you had forgotten about it, or you thought that it was not something you want to raise someone?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:13:44  
Yeah, I feel it is something which I don't want to raise, because admission is not. She was still upset, she was still upset, because she should tone down. She upset. But again, as I mentioned that the main reason for me to be at this session is to actually to talk about this FDC. So I feel that I do agree with Pritam on the seven that we need to have a statement to be out as soon as possible. So they are the that is my objective of coming to the meeting. And I have to achieve that objective. Yeah, because the situation was was bad. And I also believed that she was really distressed about this issue. So which I relate to the point made up when we kind of had an interview with it. It's a disciplinary panel, where she mentioned even contemplating to resign. Okay, due to that particular episode,

Desmond Lee  1:14:38  
yes. Yeah. So so what you're telling us is that this was a meeting where Miss Kahn came and opened herself up to say, number one, she was a sexual assault survivor, which was shocking. The other thing she said was, she had lied to Parliament, which was new to you. Right? These are the two things she talked about, according to you. You're all three of you were very focused on her own experience as a survivor, overwhelm your counter down. And the very next thing you talked about was not the second thing she talked to you all about, which is a lie in Parliament. But you jump straight to your focus, which was about the Muslim issues that were raised. Yes. And so the sum total of what you take away from that meeting, apart from that two new pieces of information that you will in possession with regards to the anecdote and her own experience, as survivor, was that she was going to put up a post that very evening, that same evening, she told you she had been sexually assaulted and that she liked in Parliament, the only thing you're agreed on was that she would put up a post about FGC and polygamy. Yes, yes. Thank you. So, you, you would agree that the meeting ended around 1212 Plus that day around August, and that this WhatsApp message to her closest assistants Miss low paying and Mr. Yudhishthira Narbonne, was at 12:41pm. Shortly after the meeting. You agree, right. You said earlier? Yes. And that she had said that they agreed. discuss two things, Muslim issues and police accusation on Muslim issues. You agree, when she said that? They suggested that I write a statement or she write a statement to send out this evening. You agree. But what you're saying is you don't agree that y'all discuss the police accusation, and that they agree or you, Mr. Singh and Muslim agree that the best thing to do is to take the information to the grave we didn't discuss at all? No. The issue of No, the falsehood in Parliament. Yeah. Okay. So, do you agree with me, therefore, that what Miss Khan had just said in Corp and what she said contemporaneously in a whatsapp to her closest assistants? And what you are telling us today are starkly different? Yes. Totally different. Totally different. He she said that y'all discussed two things. Muslim issue as well as the issue of sexual assault. That on Muslim issues, decision put up a post on sexual assault anecdote. Ticket to the grave. You disagree with the second but not the first, which means you agree on Muslim issues? Yes. In clarified in pose. Yes. You disagree that the anecdote about sexual assault was discussed. And you disagree with her that the decision was to take this lie in Parliament to the grave disagree, disagree? Can I just check with you? Do you have or are you aware of any notes of meeting any records, any messages, any emails and WhatsApp, any telegram any posts that summarize what your had discussed on Eighth of August? Because this was a meeting with a lot of significance? Yeah, right. It would you say this was a meeting way? Important things were discussed.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:18:24  
Important thing to discuss to clear the air. Yes. Regarding the FDC and the

Desmond Lee  1:18:30  
Bernie subsequent record, what was transpiring? No information was put down on a message or email? No. Did the three of you update any other member of the Workers Party sees? No, not at all. Can I now just focus on the actions taken in the immediate aftermath of this meeting? affected in this eighth of August ended around shelf plus? Yes. And this was a meeting where you learned for the first time about Miss Karns traumatic experience as a survivor. You learn from Miss Kahn that she had said a miss truth in Parliament about the police. And you had settled with Miss Kahn about what to do about the Muslim issues. Right. This was a meeting. I want to talk about the immediate aftermath what happened for the rest of the day. So am I right that immediately after this meeting, there were a flurry of messages between some of you may be Miss Kahn, yourself. Mr. Singh, Miss Lim about about the Muslim issues. That means the posts he was going to put on the eighth of August is between me and Miss Han. Also just two of you exchanging WhatsApp messages. Yes. And she sent you a draft of what she was going to say is like back she did. Did you at any point in time in the exchange of eighth of August raised with discuss with her confront her about her experience as a sexual assault survivor. No, you can recall or you usually didn't happen.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:20:11  
I don't recall off on the cell, right? I don't recall that we pursue the method of her being

Desmond Lee  1:20:19  
the bit, okay. And you will be able to later verify with your messages that that was the only thing discussed. Thank you.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:20:26  
Welcome.

Desmond Lee  1:20:30  
So am I right to say that on the eighth of August after your left, Mr. Singh's home, there was no discussion with Miss Kahn about the anecdote in Parliament? No, you did not discuss with Mr. Singh or Miss Lim on the eighth of August about Miss Khan's anecdote in Parliament? No. Did you Mr. Singh or miss limb to the best of your knowledge? Clarify with Miss Kahn? What the conclusion of the eighth August meeting was a eighth of August we discussed this. Yeah. This is the summary. Did y'all do that?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:21:12  
I mean, on itself, you know.

Desmond Lee  1:21:18  
So you know, that, after the August sitting of Parliament, there was a sitting of parliament in September. Yes. Shadow for the 13th of September. Yes. There was no draft statement or a post or media release. prepared with regards to clarifying the falsehood that should sit in Parliament about the police. No, no. That means you're sure there wasn't or you're very sure. Very sure. There was nothing, no preparation at all. For the, for the sitting of parliament in September? No. Get no meetings physically virtually. About the force which said in Parliament? No. You didn't pursue or follow up on the fact that she told you that she had lied in Parliament, no. And the rest of the CC was not told. After the eighth of August, or on the eighth of August about the point she made, ie her own experience as a survivor as well as her untruth in Parliament. Not to mention nothing was mentioned to the season. There was no discussion on after the eighth of August. But prior to the fourth of October, nothing discussed about explaining to Parliament about the untruth about the police. Nothing about coming clean to the public.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:22:54  
But nothing I think the pivotal.

Desmond Lee  1:23:00  
Did, did you check at any point in time, or not after the eighth of August about whether Miss Khan would be telling her parents about her own experience? No, no. And you just left it. That means the last time we discussed with Miss Kahn about her own experience as a sexual assault survivor was in the morning on the eighth of August, correct? There was no further discussion with her by you. Yes, by me. And there was no discussion at any point by you with Miss Kahn on or after the eighth of August with respect to her falsehood sit in Parliament. No, you didn't discuss it further. But you were aware on and after eighth of August. Like in Parliament? Yes. You were aware but you did not raise it with her. You didn't follow up didn't question her. So in short, between the eighth of August, and the parliamentary sitting in September 13 of September. And in fact, all the way to third of October, which is the day before the October sitting. There was no preparation, no discussion, no work done to prepare to clarify this falsehood that she told you all about. Not the preview of not me. Yeah, you're not aware?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:24:19  
Yeah. Okay. But on myself when for myself? I've not actually I did not communicate further.

Desmond Lee  1:24:24  
Could it be the case that Miss Kahn was correct that y'all three of y'all had told her to take the truth to the grave and no means the the truth didn't. It's not pressed. Let me let it let it lie. No, no, you disagree with her disagree. So you're saying that Miss Kahn was not truthful? Yes. In the WhatsApp message immediately after the meeting? Yes. On the eighth of August Yes. And that she is telling an untruth to CLP Yes, thank you. Let me now move to the fourth of October Parliament sitting in the parliament set on the fourth of October. Yep. You in Parliament. They accumulate, you can, but you heard the Minister for Home Affairs make the ministerial statement,

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:25:07  
Irish parliament about one to one plus, because I remember that day I fetch my daughter she was she had PSLE paper. So I'm there to be for support.

Desmond Lee  1:25:18  
Okay. But when you arrive in Parliament, were you aware that there was an exchange between this con and Minister Shanmugam about the anecdote that should sit in August? No, because I accumulate accumulate. Nobody told you about this

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:25:35  
later on. I did see someone he was sent me or in my waistline, report media report. But then I realized that the exchange took place before it came in what time roughly when did you become not so sure, because there's a lot of sharing of WhatsApp. Yeah.

Desmond Lee  1:25:54  
Yeah. So but you're saying that on the fourth of October itself, Parliament was sitting in Parliament center until nearly midnight, if you recall. Yeah. You aware on that day, that there was this exchange between Mr. Shanmugam and Miss Kahn? Yes. And you were aware, on the fourth of October that Miss Kahn had repeated the untruth and said that there was indeed such an incident where she accompany to the Viva media report media report. So that was on the fourth of October access. Do you know roughly when you knew about it was in late in the afternoon? Certainly by the end of the day, you were away? Yes.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:26:35  
I can say that. Yeah.

Desmond Lee  1:26:37  
So at what point? Did you become aware of that?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:26:43  
I kind of know, because it is a you know what people sharing with WhatsApp? I don't actually, you know, take a look at a time, so I cannot give it all the time. Yeah. I don't remember that.

Desmond Lee  1:26:52  
So the sake you're saying that the first time you became aware of this exchange, where Miss Kahn reiterated that falsehood was through WhatsApp. Yeah. Amongst sharing Party MPs,

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:27:04  
maybe not, not from the workers, but the MP. So from from medical techs,

Desmond Lee  1:27:12  
the other contacts, Miss people sent you a message. Yeah. About media reporting about this exchange. Do you recall was it Straits Times as a CNA? Yahoo News You can refer. But you receive information about that?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:27:29  
Yeah. I mean, you say that I only know knew about it. Okay, to the media report yesterday to the WhatsApp platform. So did you

Desmond Lee  1:27:37  
realize at that point in time that Miss Kahn had repeated what she said, on the third of August, you? Yes. And because you heard it from her on the eighth of August that she had lied, then. Did you realize on fourth of October when you read that media article that in fact, when she insisted it was true, that was false? Sorry. So you said that eighth of August, she told Mr. Singh Muslim and yourself that she had told an untruth in Parliament about the police. Yes, she told you. Then, on the fourth of October, you receive a media article sent by some sharing, sharing that Mr. Shanmugam had asked her whether that incident took place? And she replied, Yes, it did take place. She did accompany a survivor. Were you aware on the fourth of October when you read the article that in fact, Miss Kahn was repeating a falsehood, you became aware? And you became aware because you remembered what she told you on the eighth of August? Yes, right. Yeah. Because the news article will just say that the news article you receive on fourth October, we'll just have said that. The Home Affairs Minister asked Miss Kahn to confirm whether such changes happen. And she said Indeed, that happened. Okay. So she stood her ground to say that anecdote did happen. And to the public. It was her insisting the public, the media, none of us would know that it was a falsehood. Except for Miss Kahn. yourself, Mr. Singh and the civil incorrect, because of what she told you on the East Coast. Same goes with Miss Liu and yudishe. And same for Miss Lowe. Mr. You destroy Northern. Yeah. So you are aware on the fourth of October that she had repeated a falsehood in Parliament? Yes, I'm aware. So third August falsehood. Fourth October she repeated the falsehood to the Home Affairs Minister in Parliament. Yes. What went through your mind when you saw that article, and you realized you put two and two together. She she repeated a falsehood because of what you heard. About on Eighth of August. Okay, what went through your mind?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:30:03  
Okay, to be honest that nothing come to me in an interesting manner. Basically, I just feel that, you know, she basically she way way she wait, wait, wait, has she not want to tell the truth? So she's open to us. Right? So that's what comes comes came to me Yeah, basically.

Desmond Lee  1:30:24  
So you just told us that on fourth of October you came to Parliament after this ministerial statement? You will not. You didn't hear this discussion between menjaga. And Miss, can you then received a media article from someone? And it was about this exchange? Yes. Yeah. Right. And then you realize that when she repeated the anecdote, she was in fact, saying for on an ad on this occasion, again, repeating a lie, you knew, and you knew it was a lie, because of eighth of August. And what you're saying is that you your your reaction was why did she lie again? When she had told you, Mr. Singh? Yeah. And Muslim? Yes. Yes. And did you expect that this issue will arise this question of whether she had lied in parliament in August? Do you expect it to arise in October? No. On third of August, you know, that the Minister of State Desmond Tan had asked her for substantiation you were aware? Yes. And so here was the home affairs minister asking for substantiation again, in October, you were not anticipating it? No. Did you know that? Would you know if Mr. Singh had visited Miss rice icon at her home on the third of October? No, he didn't tell you not aware. I was not we're not aware that. Miss Kahn told the corp. And this is the second of December transcript page 83. If you could just look at it. You show me 87. So it's a few pages before that. It's 83.

You have that in front of us. So let me just take you through that page to orientate you. From the top Mr. Tang talks about the third of August speech that Miss Kahn had made and the anecdote and subsequently she admitted that the anecdote was false and never happened. Correct. Miss can see correctly. You see, yes. That was Miss Tang. Again, October, there was a further parliamentary sitting two months after the speech. You asked various questions by Mr. Shanmugam in relation to details such as police station date, so and so forth. And you'd confirm that, and you subsequently also agreed with missing Johnny Raja that those statements were also false. Correct. Miss Kahn says correct. Then Mr. Tang says all right, I'd like to pause for a moment October you go further down. Miss Kansas, before the October sitting, I had a conversation with Leader of the Opposition Pritam Singh. And the conversation was that if I were to retain the narrative, or if I were to continue the narrative, there would be no judgement. You see that line there. And that is Miss Kahn. That's what she said. And Mr. Tong asked, which they took place Miss Kansas third October the day before ie the day before fourth October parliamentary sitting. Where did this take place? Mr. Tong us Miss Kansas in my house. Mr. Tong asked Was there anyone else present besides the two of you miss Kahn replies? No, there was not. Were you aware of this visit? No. Miss Kahn, toll Co Op happened on the third of October. No, you were not aware. I'm not. So you know that Parliament set for two days? Fourth and fifth October? Yes. Yeah. And I believe you you did speak on the fifth fifth of October. You had some speech in Parliament

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:34:26  
am a human emotion I believe is a human motion. I

Desmond Lee  1:34:30  
believe that's right. Yes. The motion. Yeah. And did you did you discuss with Miss Kahn why she had lied again on the fourth of October after you receive the news article? No. You didn't speak to her. You didn't message her? No. Did you speak to Mr. Pritam Singh the silver limb know about this? No. Didn't ask them what was going on?

So the whole of the fourth of October, after you were aware, from the media article and your personal knowledge of the eighth of August, that Miss Kahn had not only lied on the third of August but repeated untruth on the fourth of October. In parliament, you took no action whatsoever. No, at all. At all. You You're the senior MP or Workers Party vice chairman. She had told you. Right, personally to you that she liked you didn't take any action at all.

No. Were you aware of any meetings that senior workers party leaders had with Miss Kahn on the fourth of October? No, were you aware? I'm not at all You were not involved at all.

So on the fifth of October, the very next day, did you find out about this exchange between Mr. Shanmugam and Miss can because Mr. Shanmugam said this method will not rest the police will will try to find out and establish more. Will you not concern that this was a serious issue?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:36:30  
I don't have that concern. To just to state that from it of August Sorry. Yeah. of August right. Okay, I do not, as I mentioned earlier, don't have any kind of communication with Raisa and I do not actually come communicate the method even to further further with a silver and preterm and that's why I'm not privy to all estimation admitting on the

Desmond Lee  1:37:02  
right. So on the fifth of October, rice, I didn't stand up in Parliament to clarify her untruth right. Not to your knowledge, not to my knowledge, and as a matter of fact, she did not. And as a matter of fact, neither Mr. Singh nor Miss Lim nor yourself stood up to talk about the issue of the falsehood. And you also didn't write to Parliament about this. None of us stood up and you didn't check with Mr. Singh Muslim or any CC member about what to do arising from the home affairs ministers. Exchange miscarried about the falsehood No.

Can I ask you to take a look at a media statement by the police maybe the system clock to put it in front of you? This was the media statement that the police put out. is public information about have it placed in front of you?

You have the in front of Miss. If you look at the next page is dated 20th. October 2021 2pm. You have that the date? It says police statement. Yep. And it said that on third August, MP Miss Kahn said in parliament that three years ago she had a company a 25 year old victim to make a police report. You see that? And then further down fourth October Home Affairs Minister asked Miss Kahn to provide more information she declined. Citing confidentiality minister said police will ask Miss Kahn to go for an interview. Next paragraph. SS CB serious sexual crime branch of Cid, which investigates rape offenses sent an email to miss Kahn on seventh of October. You see that seventh of October, requesting her to get in touch with the police by 14th of October to arrange for an interview. Were you aware of this request by the police to miss Kahn?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:39:24  
I am aware of the requests made by the SPF

Desmond Lee  1:39:27  
to her when were you aware of that? Was it on the day or shortly after that

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:39:33  
should be on a day on the day the

Desmond Lee  1:39:35  
request was made to her and how did you come to knowledge of the information

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:39:41  
to get actually I did receive a an email which was addressed to me Peterman Silvia from from Raisa Zoran mishaan from his car. Okay, I think it's not, if not mistaken, did seven of Tober Okay, mentioned about this request from The police are getting this. Yeah,

Desmond Lee  1:40:02  
the email she sent to you. Yeah. What do you do to produce that email exchange for us later? Yes. What did she say in the email?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:40:10  
Basically, just for what the what they call it, the police just inform us, if I'm not mistaken. She also did mentioned that she will consult

Desmond Lee  1:40:22  
a lawyer is in the email.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:40:26  
If I can, if I believe it's in the email, maybe run it to really refer back

Desmond Lee  1:40:31  
to the producer two hours later. So he produced it twice later. Yeah. And when you saw that, did you reply to her? No, I did not. Did you suggest any cause of action that I should make? I didn't. Did you see any reply by the other two persons who addressed these Mr. Singh and Miss limb?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:40:51  
I don't recall seeing any recall. Okay.

Desmond Lee  1:40:56  
Do you know whether Muskaan went to the police station to respond to it wasn't aware of that. Were you aware of this media release? Did you see this media release at any point in time? It was just police media release. I just put

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:41:12  
I got to know about this. But I can't remember from source limited media or you know, or someone told me or WhatsApp. I can't remember that. But But yeah,

Desmond Lee  1:41:22  
yeah. So maybe I show you the Straits Times article which is online, maybe we can put it in front of you as well dated 20th of October. I'm not sure if assistant club has that. But if it was tended previously, alleged mishandling of sexual assault case, no response from WP MP riser says police.

Thank you. You see the news article. Yes. Basically, if we look at the article, which is quite brief, it reiterates what the police had said in that police media release that I just showed you that they invited Miss Kahn on seventh October to respond by 14th of October. She did not respond. Another email was sent on the 15th of October or senior to reply by the 18th. And she did not respond. So were you aware that she did not respond to the police? Yes. Did you as Workers Party vice chairman and CC member question her why she did not respond to the police

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:42:33  
get the point time after the end of August, right. As I mentioned, I'm not really a didn't pursue this issue with Pritam or Silvia

Desmond Lee  1:42:43  
now with MS can know the two of them. So you didn't involve yourself in this man? Yeah. About her lying to Parliament?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:42:51  
Yes. Because I believe that bithumb estimation, Min Pritam is SG right. Okay, foot. She knows ski Reisa is very close, is closer to Him, as compared to us because she volunteered with PETA is what?

Desmond Lee  1:43:07  
When you say as you meaning yourself and Islam is yes. Okay.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:43:11  
So I believe that since Pritam knows her well. Again, drovers knows about what's going on. So my assumption that point Tom was bitten to actually do the needful, what he needs to do

Desmond Lee  1:43:24  
so so it's in your mind, this issue of her Miss Kahn saying a miss truth to Parliament, or in August and October, it was something for Mr. Pritam Singh to deal with. Yes. Did you tell Mr. Singh that No.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:43:42  
I didn't talk to him in that way. I mean, it's kind of like mind standing, give my my assumption that since the two of us know about it, and Pritam is the one is closer to her and believe that He is know how to manage the situation better. Mr. Singh

Desmond Lee  1:43:59  
update you at any point in time about how he was managing this misconduct made? No no.

Let me turn to the 12th of October. And Miss Kahn had told this committee that on the 12th of October, she had met Mr. Pritam Singh and Miss Sylvia Lim at Mr. Pritam Singh's home. Were you aware of that meeting? Are you aware of the meeting now before you came into CLP? Yes. And how did you become aware of that meeting?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:44:39  
The know after the thing when public right there was a decision on

Desmond Lee  1:44:45  
which day I mean when when become public but what what's that

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:44:50  
when men men, men only know Okay, after we form the the DP So this bit of discussion, then I kind of realized that, you know, there's the thing few met up a few meeting between Pritam and rice as well as Sylvain Reisa.

Desmond Lee  1:45:11  
So you became aware of the tough October meeting much later, much later correct. When when they say this matter became public, I presume on or after first November, because because when we

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:45:21  
formed the DP Rambaldi, baby display independent sorry, so we have to discuss a bit more. Yes. So I only know about the meeting after and part of the DP. Yeah.

Desmond Lee  1:45:32  
Okay. So on 12, October, or immediately after CEF. October, you were unaware of this meeting? I know. But you were aware that Miss Kahn was drafting a statement to explain her Miss drew her untruths, to Parliament. On the turf? No, after the 12th.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:45:53  
After the tough, we read, I know about it, when she actually want to come up to me as a confession. Okay. And then of course, there was a meetup. Okay, between us, the MPs as well as the cc of the party. Okay, for her to show to see what she's going to say in Parliament. I think the one was,

Desmond Lee  1:46:18  
when was that? sometime in October? Was it before first November obviously must be right. Yeah. Okay. First November is sitting, where she came up with a person on Monday, right.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:46:30  
So on the Friday before, so must be 29th 20/29 of October.

Desmond Lee  1:46:36  
Looking at my calendar, so first November, she went to Parliament to give a personal statement to say that she had misled parliament in August and October. So that was first it was a Monday. And you're saying that this was on a Friday? So 29th? Correct. of October? Correct. So 29. October, you and the rest of the Workers Party CC including Mr. Singh and Muslim met Miss Kahn. Yes. To go through her statement,

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:47:07  
not to go through but for her to tell us what she couldn't say in Parliament and for us to, to hear what she has to say. mean go to mean for us to Yeah, for her to share with us. lexically. So she

Desmond Lee  1:47:18  
read out her statement. Yes, indeed. And so remember at the start of this session, as to, she messaged me on the 30th of October, saying what do you think? 31st? I'd like to say sorry, I replied late. Yeah. But I thought it was good to come clean. And you're very courageous. I respect to you remember? Yes. Yeah. So so so. So prior to that you must have read, but or heard what she was going to say, you

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:47:45  
know, because it was on the 30th?

Desmond Lee  1:47:47  
I mean, yeah. 2920. That's when I confirmed?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:47:49  
Yes, yeah. Yes.

Desmond Lee  1:47:56  
So, are you saying that on the 29th of October was the very first time you became aware that Miss Kahn was going to clarify in Parliament about the untruths? Yes. 29th. And you found out only when you heard it then then from iscan? Yes. So you prior to 29th? October, you were totally unaware about the she was preparing to go to Parliament to clarify, wasn't what had happened. You were totally unaware. You didn't ask anyone? No, nobody told you no.

After the exchange between Mr. Shanmugam and Miss Kahn on the fourth of October in Parliament, there was a lot of activity based on what the GOP has found over the last few sittings. There were meetings on how to respond to him how to respond to the police queries. There were a variety of meetings discussing the statement that the iscan would make. There was some discussion about consulting lawyers because you said that you receive an email from is consensual consult a lawyer. There were drafts to compass Vale residents, volunteers and so on. And so a lot of things happen after fourth October. Parliament sitting all the way culminating on first of November, Miss Kahn spoke in Parliament to explain what happened in October and August, right? Yes, you were unaware of all that other than the 29th October meeting, and the email and the email on the seventh of October. Yes, other than those two incidents you had no inkling at all that things were being done in anticipation of her finally deciding to come clean as parliament, yes, you're right.

So basically, from your point of view, eighth of August at Mr. Singh's house, she told Muskaan told you and the others that she had told her mistress to Parliament, all the way to the sitting of Parliament on the fourth of October, you did not involve yourself at all with what she told you about the falsehood this year, right. fourth of October, you read from a media article that Miss Kahn had liked again, and you know that only a few people know that she lied, right? Because she told, you know, on Eighth of August, and the rest of the public, the media would not know better. Yeah. All right. So fourth October when that penny dropped about her repeating the falsehood all the way until 29th of October, you will not involve at all You didn't pursue you didn't ask anything. Correct. As the Workers Party vice chairman, you didn't correct. And as someone who Omniscan being someone who had, you know, asked you for advice, counsel on a number of different occasions, you didn't give her any advice didn't guide her didn't?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:51:26  
Because in terms of counseling, the discuss what is what is the what have been presented to us. So when Miss Raisa misconduct mentioned to me, asked me to get up, as I mentioned earlier, as we discussed earlier on the seventh of October, so this is where I discuss according to what she wants me to, to assist her with. So it's about the dawning of the

Desmond Lee  1:51:52  
seventh October when she met you, after all this thing on the fourth of October about her repeating the line you are aware you didn't ask on seventh? Yeah, correct. He didn't. Can I now take you to first November. You will in Parliament when Miss Kahn this gave a personal statement about what she said to Parliament in August and October's you heard what she said. What went through your mind when you heard her say that?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:52:23  
I'm relieved that you know, she come up and tell the truth. Yeah.

Desmond Lee  1:52:31  
And if you felt it was the right thing to do, indeed, that she had lied before and therefore was coming clean.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:52:38  
Yeah. To those put the record record

Desmond Lee  1:52:43  
on the sad second of November. We actually have a media statement but I think you will be familiar Workers Party put out a statement saying it was going to form a disciplinary panel you recall

maybe place it before you so that you know refresh your memory as to what was put out by the party.

You have that said the Workers Party Central Executive Committee has approved the formation of a disciplinary panel to look into the admissions made by MP Ray second in parliament on first November arising from an earlier speech made by the MP in Parliament on third August 2021. The panel comprises Secretary General Pritam Singh chair Silvia Lim and Vice Chair Faisal mana. The panel will report its findings and recommendations to the CC update completes its work. The work of the parties disciplinary panel is separate from any decision the committee of privileges of Parliament may make the Workers Party media team, you will aware of this media release. Yes. And the Workers Party discipline panel was formed. On the second of November, right? Yes. And the W PCCs. approval to form the DP was also on the second on November 1 of November.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:54:16  
I was asked by preterm to be part of this committee on the first

Desmond Lee  1:54:21  
on first November Yes. What time do you recall? He asked you roughly wasn't email was it?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:54:33  
Morning. Late morning on first of all, get baby skirting after re submit the the confession. And then I think I receive a whatsapp from Pritam said am I willing to be part of this IDP on first November. Yeah. After the confession after after her personal statement in palpatory. Yeah. And you able to provide us with that later? Yeah.

Desmond Lee  1:54:56  
And you replied Yes. Yes. Did you ask him any questions about what the role of this DP was? No. So you're aware on the first of November that a DP will be formed on the second of November? Yeah. Right. And reading this media statement, it accords with what you understood your role as a DP member to be. Yes. And that was to a quote from the statement to look into the admissions made by Miss Teresa can, arising from what she said in Parliament and report its findings and recommendations. Am I right? Yes.

So the decision to form the DEP was made by the Secretary General, from your knowledge was made by Mr. Singh,

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:56:00  
because he's one who actually asked me with him, you know, he initiated the there was a skinny with them willing to part of it. So yeah,

Desmond Lee  1:56:08  
were you privy to the message sent to this Workers Party see see on the formation of the DEP? Yeah. Did you know it was me Sylvia Lim, who wrote the message to the CC. What do you mean, Mr. Lim had asked the CC for permission to form the DEP.

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:56:26  
Were you aware is preterm, he was Pritam Singh.

Desmond Lee  1:56:36  
Can I refer you to a document that Miss Kahn had submitted to the CRP on the second of December? This is an email from Miss Sylvia Lim copied to both you and Mr. Pritam Singh. And sent to miss rice icon. Dated second November 2021 6:35pm. You have a letter in front of you? Yes, it is an email letter. Correct. Right. And I quote, it says the disciplinary panel is tasked to investigate this episode, and recommend to the CEC whether there are grounds to take action against you. Ie Mrs. Can for conduct prejudicial to the welfare of the party, unquote. You see that? Yes. So you agree that this means that the disciplinary panel is supposed to look into the specific circumstances surrounding Miss Khan's untruths in Parliament, August, October. And it was formed, officially one day after Miss Kahn came clean. So it was really about what she told parliament. Right? Correct. That's the that's the role of the DP. Yeah. And the fact that Miss Kahn had told Mr. Singh, Miss Silva Lim, and you on the eighth of August, and all the interactions that the party leadership, ie the three of you, as well as the three of you might have would be relevant in investigating this episode. Am I right? So it means investigating this episode. The fact that Miss Kahn had told the three of you on Eighth of August that she had lied in Parliament was relevant to the findings of the DEP. Sorry, can you form a DEP? Correct? Yes. And there are three people in the DEP. Yes, Mr. Singh, Muslim and yourself. Correct. And according to the tqr, that is set out in the email I showed you it is to investigate this episode in this episode of Muskaan misleading parliament on two occasions. Correct. And that, therefore, what Miss Kahn did, what she was thinking, who she told this to who she confided in what instructions she got, what leaders said or did not say after she had confessed internally, these will all be relevant to the disciplinary panels investigation into this episode. Would that be correct? Okay, so let me let me come at it again, DEP is supposed to investigate this episode of her lying to Parliament. Correct? Correct. And part of this episode. It is relevant that she had told you on the eighth of August that she had lied. I know you told us earlier that you were overwhelmed by you know, other things that she told you, particularly her own traumatic experience, but the fact that she told you on the eighth of August is relevant to this investigation. Am I right?

Faisal Abdul Manap  1:59:52  
Okay, basically, DPS to look into what she mentioned in the parliament,

Desmond Lee  1:59:56  
so everything relating to her title of Parliament. These falsehoods,

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:00:01  
yeah, more of the light that she she told me about him, including why

Desmond Lee  2:00:05  
she liked how it came to pass. What advice she got, who she confessed to internally? Would this not be relevant to the task of the DP?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:00:17  
Because this is to look as mentioned against now, yes. Let's to look into the part where she lied. Yes. In parliament. And we are supposed to look into basically, why. Yeah, I do understand why she lied. Yeah. Okay.

Desmond Lee  2:00:36  
So here was a case of look into this episode means third August 4 October, correct. Okay, third August. She said the anecdote in Parliament falls, correct. Yeah. Fourth October in Parliament falls. Yeah. Right. So you need to look into what she said in Parliament or to understand why she said those things. Correct. All right. And between third August and fourth October, the fact that she had told party leaders that she lied. Is that not relevant as part of this whole chain? Yeah, yes. Correct. So to me, you repeat the or No, I just wanted to be clear. And the fact that on fourth of October that you became aware as vice chairman of the party, through media sources, that she had this Exchange admin Shanmugam, and that you as vice chairman, we're aware that she had lied because of the eighth August, would that also be relevant to the DEP would not Assisi want to know that? Party vice chairman was aware on the fourth of October that she had lied again, okay. Because it is irrelevant? Yes. Yes, yes. Because if you, you, Mr. Singh, and Muslim hurt the exchange on fourth October and told her to correct it, then then. Yeah. All right. That would have made a difference. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying that what she told you, Miss Kahn told you and Mr. Singh, and Miss limb on Eighth of August is relevant to the job of the DP. You said? Yes. He also said what you knew on the fourth of October when she had repeated that lie in parliament is relevant to the finding of the DP relevant, that the DP ought to find out about these things. The DP ought to present all these to cc. Yes.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:02:43  
Okay, I'm not so sure. I mean, to be clear on that, yes. Yeah. This is the measures on the ps3 into the light that she mentioned.

Desmond Lee  2:02:52  
Yes. Yeah. So the lie. They lie. And yeah, circumstances around it. Right. Yeah. And

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:02:57  
then we need to investigate by calling her up, giving it to as a deployment to prison what she sent it to us to the CC,

Desmond Lee  2:03:05  
but she sent to you formally as a DP. Correct? Yeah. Yeah. And, and basically, what you're trying to do as a DP is, okay, you're tasked by cc. The task is to investigate this episode, which is the two two acts of misleading parliament. Yes. All right. And you just said just now that and it's in the transcript, the fact that she had told party leaders on Eighth of August that she had lied. And according to you, no further action or direction was given to is relevant to is relevant to the DP. The DP ought to put this in a report

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:03:42  
get determined we did the investigation. Right. With sorry, the interview with that we did not bring up that issue. Okay, it wasn't, we're not looking at the point what happened in terms of from the eighth, you know, until on the eighth is also plus on the sixth all that so, because we are looking on the confessions that she made on the first and to refer back to the light she she said on the

Desmond Lee  2:04:20  
UN organ this

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:04:21  
fourth of October. Yeah.

Desmond Lee  2:04:26  
So you were looking into the specific mistruths, she said in Parliament. Yeah. Right. But the fact that a few days after she had said that Miss truth on Eighth of all the third of August she had then on the eighth of August confessed to party leadership Chairman vice chairman and section. She had lied. Yes, that is relevant. That means that she she lied in August but she confessed to party leaders on Eighth of August relevant to relevant to the findings of the DEP is not relevant for the DP to look into. Watch it till party leaders after the line.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:05:05  
Okay, as I mentioned is know what have transacted in the DP DP interview with sir. Right. Okay. The part of the on the eight was we didn't discuss yet. Okay.

Desmond Lee  2:05:18  
But you say that on Eighth she had told union in Mr. Singh and Islam that she had lied to Parliament. Yeah. So whatever you may have said whenever you may have not said whatever your thought didn't think do didn't do when you are now part of the DEP. Right. You are now tasked to investigate her for lying. Yeah. Is it not relevant that she had, in fact, according to you, confessed or told Chairman, vice chairman and sanction on the eighth of August, that on a few days ago, I told him,

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:05:51  
I'm not so sure what you mean by relevance. Sorry, I'm sorry. But after the problem is getting better revenue in revenue? What

Desmond Lee  2:05:57  
to the DPS job? So remember the DPS job Miss civil limbs, email, maybe look back at that investigate this episode? Yes. Which is an Regnet recommendations about to the CC about what action should be taken against Miss Kahn for misleading parliament on two occasions, correct? Yes. And so you did obviously to look at the two episodes third, August 4 October? Yes. Correct. That is what we are investigating. That's right. Yeah. But if Miss can having So Miss Khan's motivation for lying. Is it relevant? Why she said that lie? Is it relevant? Yes, right.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:06:35  
Motivation.

Desmond Lee  2:06:36  
What Why did she tell that falsehood? Is it relevant? Her mindset? Was she doing our anger our spy? Was it an callousness? Is it not relevant to

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:06:47  
in terms of the reason for to basically to

Desmond Lee  2:06:51  
tell him his truth to Parliament? Correct. untrue. Yes. is relevant. The fact that she confesses to party leaders shortly after lie? Yes. is relevant. Yes.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:07:00  
Confess that she didn't.

Desmond Lee  2:07:03  
Yeah, in this, yes. The fact that whatever your thought on the eighth of August, you say that Mr. Singh Muslim, and you despite knowing that she had already lied a few days earlier in August, you didn't do anything about it? Is that not relevant? For the CC to know that she told party leaders I really lied, and nothing was done from your perspective is not relevant to tell the CC you know,

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:07:33  
to bonus when when when the DEP was formed. It was not on my mind.

Desmond Lee  2:07:37  
Correct. But your DPS role is to investigate and recommend what action should be taken.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:07:42  
Yes, yes. Yes. But the DEP mitigation starting from the second of November right is to investigate in terms of interview. Yes. Right, sir. So the whatever we the findings of the investigation, starting from the second of November, that will be take into consideration of report. DEP has to present to cc

Desmond Lee  2:08:05  
just right. Yes. So your CC is waiting for a report from DEP An independent report. Yes to explain or assess what Miss can did. And to recommend the level of her responsibility.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:08:18  
Curtis on the interview that you have with Miss Han? Yes, yes.

Desmond Lee  2:08:24  
Right. So you got to interview her to understand her explanation? Yes. You also Amanda not not right. Am I wrong? Am I correct? You you send an email to all workers party members to say anyone has anything to say about this. These steps? Yes. Correct. They could write in the appear before the DP Correct. Yes. And you just wanted to have the chance for everyone to have a say on on this matter? Yes.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:08:47  
Right. Yeah. So So investigation starts on the second, I mean, after the formation, so we do not look at what has transpired in the past. Because that's it right. So what brought up brought up the issue that you know, she confessed to us during the interview, and whatever is been mentioned to yudishe and Miss Lowe that we asked her to take the matter to the grave. It should be told on the to the DP on the on the second this first time that we met her we showed results on the it ended up sticking November. Yeah. So so the investigation and information you're going to present to cc commence from what we gather on the second up to be finished the investigation and that the information is going to be presented to cc.

Desmond Lee  2:09:35  
So you did present a report to the CC

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:09:37  
is really present a written report. We refresh up on the

Desmond Lee  2:09:44  
PowerPoint to the PowerPoint slide. So there is actually a formal presentation. Yeah. On what day was that presentation? Was it the 29th of October? Was it earlier was it no Sorry, was November sorry, should be November.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:10:06  
November I think the press conference was on the second of December, right.

Desmond Lee  2:10:12  
Second December press conference, but she's again November was your DPP?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:10:17  
Yeah. So investigation team we finished on June 9, if not mistaken, the data presented to the SEC. Yeah. So 30th November

Desmond Lee  2:10:25  
was the day on which the DEP presented its report this on a PowerPoint slide. Yes. Or set of slides to the CDC? Yes. And the CDC, looking at your findings decided that either Miss can resign or she be expelled from the party

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:10:41  
that does recommend that we recommend that it's easy to consider asking her to resign, failing doing so. expulsion?

Desmond Lee  2:10:51  
Could you provide us with a copy of the recommendation? The DP? Can you? Can I just bring you back to before the DP was formed, and this was the 29th of October. The ninth October you said you went together with the rest of the CC and Miss can read to your what she was going to say in Parliament A few days later on the first of November. At that meeting, did you Mr. Singh or Muslim tell the rest of the CEC what you knew about Miss Khan's falsehoods? Which I told you about on the eighth of August? No.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:11:30  
So your CC about now is the session where she read out a statement statement and basically for for the C to know about what she's going to say she's going to say on the first of November. So am

Desmond Lee  2:11:42  
I right to say that on the second of November when the DP was formally established. The rest of the CEC other than Mr. Singh Muslim and yourself. The rest of the CC did not know that Miss Kahn had confessed to the three of your on the eighth of August, that she had misled Parliament on the third of August totally unaware and unaware. And am I also like to say that on the second of November, the CC barring the three of you were was unaware that when Miss Kahn repeated the falsehood on fourth of November 4 of October in Parliament again, in response to Mr. Shanmugam questions, mingay CC's was unaware that on the fourth of October, when Miss Kahn repeated the falsehoods in Parliament, that Mr. Singh Miss lemon, you were actually aware that she was lying again, they were the CCC one away. And then you three of your was sitting there in Parliament. Aware that she had lied again? Yes. CeCe was not told not to. Are these two facts? Eighth of August 4 of October. Were they in the DPS report to the CDC?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:13:04  
It of August and

Desmond Lee  2:13:06  
it of August? wasn't happy Thompson's house?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:13:09  
No, because what was being reported or been told to the CDC is based on the DPS investigations that from our first session was on the eighth until the 29th.

Desmond Lee  2:13:22  
Sorry, second November, so

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:13:23  
sorry, 808 of November,

Desmond Lee  2:13:25  
you started or you started your first meeting.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:13:28  
We met up with mishaan. Yes. And then it lasted the whole sessions that mean less than the 29th.

Desmond Lee  2:13:36  
So November 29, November was the DPS hearings. Yes. And then 30th You presented Yes. So am I right to say that from the eighth to 29th November All right, you will inquiry into what had happened in the past in August, in October, because the facts of life were in August and October

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:13:59  
Okay. Basically the interview we had with Raisa okay we asked her why. Basically, basically we asked you know whether you have the response, Raisa actually wrote to us. Yes, yeah. So, the focus of the meeting is to address what was her reply? Okay, we go to her reply of rejecting I believe that she mentioned about she received treatment. And when he also mentioned about she has a religious trauma. Okay. So we are focusing on that on the first sorry on Eighth of November, when we first met her for the DP interview.

Desmond Lee  2:14:43  
So am I right to say that the DP only felt or only base its findings on number one, Miss cons representations with DP interview with y'all Number two, whatever the members of the Workers Party told y'all, yes, those were the only two things you based your DP report on. Yes, yes. Yes. And what you're saying is that since Miss Kahn didn't mention the eight August, meeting at Mr. Singh's house, to the DRP, that therefore, that did not feature in the DPS findings.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:15:25  
Yeah. Because the DEP start to investigate from the eighth of November. Yeah,

Desmond Lee  2:15:30  
yeah. But would I not be correct to say, let's look at it this way. To scenarios. Miss Kahn misleads parliament on third August full stop versus Miss can scenario be mislead parliament on third August, but then confesses to the three party leaders on Eighth of August? two scenarios. Okay. One, you just know that she lied on third August to Parliament. Second scenario, you know that she lied to parliament on third August and then confessed to party leadership on Eighth of August. Okay. Would you agree that the two scenarios are different, factually different?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:16:15  
This one, is this a confession that one

Desmond Lee  2:16:17  
without? Would it? Would you agree that in the second scenario, when you know that she had confessed to party leadership, that fact is relevant to her level of responsibility? There is one where she just lied, and there's full stop versus lie. And then a few days later, come clean to the party leaders and party elders. Am I Am I right? It affects her level of responsibility. Yes. Yeah. And the DPS role is to investigate this episode and recommend to see see the level of Miss Khan's responsibility and the penalties you should face. Correct. That is the piece roll. No, the dip is roll,

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:17:00  
as you saw, as you can see in the email is about her. can just read to you again, I think, if you want me to read was was written on email, the Muslims email, Miss Miss Muslim email. I have it here. Yeah. So the task of a split panel is to investigate this episode and recommend to see where the grounds to take action against mishaan for conduct prejudicial to the welfare of the party in accordance with Article 20 of WPS in question and mitigation start starts as again, to reiterate that he starts his investigation on the eighth, which is the first interview. So again, we see that what is being presented to us from April 21 29 from Miss Reiser plus other who attended the attendees that we summarize, and we made a recommendation to resist to decide, okay, so that's the role of dp

Desmond Lee  2:17:59  
which means you say that the DP only forms its basis for recommendation based on what is told to the DP from eighth November to 29th. Yes, and whatever is not told to the DP is not considered right. But you see, Mr. Faisal, you are vice chairman of the workers r&d. And although it is not placed before the DP formerly, when it said that you were personally aware that she had confessed to you and other party leaders on Eighth of August. Did it not occur to you that this is actually very relevant to the level of misconduct responsibility? In this whole episode of lying to Parliament? Did it occur to you yes or no?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:18:51  
No, because as I mentioned that the DEP rules understand I mean, estimation here is two different separate issue. Right? Yeah. So So

Desmond Lee  2:19:01  
Mr. Pritam Singh, and Mr. Berlin didn't discuss with you. Whether the DP members should tell the CDC about what you knew on the eighth of August, was their communication about that.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:19:19  
The submission to you earlier the DPS role is to investigate and to present

Desmond Lee  2:19:24  
No, no I'm I'm asking is when the DP was formed and it's set. Okay. Did Mr. Singh discuss with you whether no eighth of August meeting, and what Miss can told y'all should be part of the DPS report to see see, there was an indiscretion and likewise, Miss Lim didn't discuss with you about whether it is necessary to put in. Likewise, both of them didn't discuss with you during the DPS Pendency or when it said that what the three of you knew on the fourth of October that Miss Khan had lied again, and you were the only three MPs other than Mrs. Khan in parliament that the who knew she had lied again on parliament. Y'all didn't discuss that this was relevant to the DPS report to CBC.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:20:16  
We did discuss the discussion, and

Desmond Lee  2:20:19  
you didn't yourself didn't think it was relevant because you say that, as you said, just now, DP only can confine its findings to what is presented? Yes. From eighth to 29th. Yes. So nevermind. What happened in the past, as long as it's not presented to dp is not for you to consider

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:20:34  
submission, the theory is to investigate, you know, yeah, yeah.

Desmond Lee  2:20:42  
You didn't think it was necessary to disclose your personal knowledge on the eighth of August and fourth of October to the workers, party cutters and members who are invited to give representations? No, no. But this put yourself in their shoes. Mr. facile, these are Workers Party cutters. If they knew that, if they knew what you knew that this young MP had misled parliament, but a few days later had confessed to party leaders, many years of senior would it be relevant for Workers Party cutters who write in to share with DEP their view on how responsible Mishcon is, but it's not the role of the pivot point in time? I'm just asking you, is it relevant?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:21:30  
Because as a part of dp, I don't find it relevant to bring it up. Bring the discussion, because it's not not not the role of the DP.

Desmond Lee  2:21:37  
So So you're saying that when workers party Carter's are invited to share with the DP about their views on the episode, yeah. And Miss Khan's level of blame, that they do not need to know that she had confessed to Workers Party leadership on the eighth of August a few days later. This is brought to you through the scenarios, right scenarios, they understand. The cutters only know that she had lied. Scenario B. Cutters know that she had lied. But that she had confessed and come clean to the party leaders. Yeah. Would it? Would the cutters think differently in two situations and objective? Carter?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:22:21  
Give me what you mentioned, what you simply given given to me is a hypothetical one,

Desmond Lee  2:22:27  
why is it hypothetical, Mr. Vice? Because it didn't happen? But didn't happen? You didn't tell them? Because he didn't tell the causes? Am I right? No, that

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:22:34  
is it. We discuss what we need to discuss. Right? If there's any Kaiser who asked me about this kind of thing, then I can say yes or no where they telling the truth. I mean, share with them for the information. But again, during this this session, okay. Basically, the focus is to us Reiser and the rest of the members. thing, we not only open to Qatar, we open to members actually. So to ask them by their point of view of what had happened based on, you know, the incident that happened on the fifth, which is racist, you know, say the truth in Parliament.

Desmond Lee  2:23:12  
Now, I understand your opposition. Mr. Face, I just wanted to understand what is the purpose of the DP asking Workers Party cutters to write in to the DP for the views for the views on what

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:23:26  
on the issue that

Desmond Lee  2:23:30  
what were you hoping that they would tell you about whether they knew anything about

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:23:36  
to anything that they want to say? Yeah,

Desmond Lee  2:23:38  
including their views on the level of penalties misconstrued face, correct? Yes. Including that.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:23:46  
Yes. That is the purpose of the formation of the DP where we need to recommend a recommendation to the CC Yeah. On the punishment.

Desmond Lee  2:23:57  
So can I email to all the message? There was a message Mr. Faisal, from the Workers Party to all its cutters and members about the DPMI right? Yes. Do you remember what that message said? Ross in the

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:24:21  
SMS. You can find it

Desmond Lee  2:25:34  
Let's just put it this way

I have it here. I'm not sure whether secretarial habit. It. Miss Lowe pings submission of WhatsApp messages. And this is a 10th November 2021 invitation by the Workers Party to all members to provide their views to the disciplinary panel. Sure. It says, Dear members, the disciplinary panel is looking into MP Reisa. Con submissions, and invites members views. If you wish to meet the panel, please emails certain person in the party so that arrangements can be made. Thank you. You see that? Yes. So this is the only thing that Workers Party members and Carter's receive Yes, about Miss Khan's admission to Parliament that she had misled parliament, correct? Yes. And a lot of these members would be people who would not know about what happened on the eighth of August, this. And so some of them would write in Am I not right to say that Miss Kahn is responsible, she should be punished. And this is what their view is, is she should be punished by this this this A B or C is based on what they know from the public realm and from what you tell them? Correct. And what you tell them, it's really just this message. And the what's the Facebook post by the Workers Party? Am I right Facebook person? on on on Miss Khan's confession on on first November. Set? Jen on first November had put out a Facebook post. Yeah, saying that she should not have lied. Correct. So I described earlier that if your members generally only know what they know, from public realm, scenario, a if they only know that she had misled Parliament versus scenario B, they know that she had not only misled parliament, but that she had confessed A few days later to the Workers Party leadership. Do you agree that the two are different? Ideally, the two are different. And would you agree that therefore, their views on Miss Carnes responsibility are different? The width is different? In general? Yes, in general. So hence, would it not be relevant to tell the membership at large, including the CEC that mandated that you've you found the DP know that you were aware that she confessed to you? No. So it was not relevant? Not relevant. Thank you.

You recall that Miss low paying and Mr. Yudhishthira Nandan had both appeared together in front of the DEP while you're set? I mean, there's a date and I have the transcript. I think you remember clearly that they were there is Were there many people who appeared before your to give oral evidence many means? I mean, there are a lot of people who who asked to meet you face to face. Yeah, we have a number quite a number. But you remember Miss low paying is not and clearly. Eddie, do you recall them asking the DP to make clear your level of knowledge? Ie what Miss Karna told you all about her life?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:29:03  
Okay, she didn't sit directly and most of the time that were paying was saying Right. Okay. She was directly to preterm okay in terms of the sitting that she was talking to Peter. Yeah,

Desmond Lee  2:29:16  
yes

a minute, just wait for them to reset the system. Get them all You want some water? Thank you Sorry for the delay noise. Can I just take you to page 101 of the transcripts of second December, Miss Cohen's testimony before this committee and 200 and 110.

Somewhere below the summer the second half

you see Miss admin Tang says, the announcement of the formation of a disciplinary panel a DP Sorry, mister is somewhere near the sorry. 10101101. Okay. You have it. Yeah. Amanda page on a page somewhere slightly lower Luminova. Move a pencil lower. Mr. Tong. And you would also remember that a day later, there was another statement that was issued? I think it's in the same file. You see that? Yes. Yeah. I'm not sure you would have seen it given your answers. So now I'd like you to have a look at it. You have that? Yes. The announcement of the formation of a DEP you said earlier, surprised you. Can you describe your sense when you first found out about this? You see that question? Yes. Miss Kahn says I was shocked. And I think that was my first reaction that I was just shocked and surprised. Mr. Tong asked why were you shocked and surprise? Miss Kahn replied, Because it had not been discussed with me previously. Mr. Tong says will you surprise that the panel would comprise Mr. Pritam Singh, Miss Seville him and Mr. Pfizer manner? His chances? No, because the leaders of the Workers Party. Mr. Tong asked did you ask yourself and you share your thoughts with us? What enquiry would take place by these three? When these three people will already people you confided in much earlier did that cross your mind? This current replies top of next page? Yes, that crossed my mind. But I assume they will be doing an in depth investigation into how other members of the party would feel. So that's one that's Miss Karns reaction. I said earlier, right at the start that she also told Miss Lowe and Mr. You destroy and other than that, she felt that you will not betray her. You remember that? They mentioned Can I turn to page 49 of that same transcript. And this is Miss Lowe Payne's evidence about the DEP.

Right at the top. It's not just a major conflict of interest for which I agree with you in the first place given now what we know the new which means what Miss Kahn had confided with you on in terms of her lie, Miss low paying Mr. Edwin Tong, but it is also self serving in that it does not seek to as I've said earlier, draw a line does does it not seek to as I said draw a line between the Workers Party and Miss Kahn. And Miss Lowe says yes. Okay. And in essence, Miss Lowe is just surprised that the three of you who who misconduct confessed about the lie. Were actually members of the DEP supposed to investigate her. Even though you were aware that she confessed to you and Mr. Judas, try not on page 46 of the third of December's transcript. This is the other deck. You look at the front it says third of third of December, page 40 6/3 of December as opposed to the second year looking at the second

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:35:16  
bit for season

Desmond Lee  2:35:17  
46. Mr. Tongue says I think that's the heart of the matter that I'm getting to Mr. Loudon. Do you see that? Somewhere near the bottom here can you see that? I think that's the heart of the matter.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:35:43  
Okay

Desmond Lee  2:35:46  
maybe go for the apnea, Mr admin Tong, and in many ways, not dissimilar to what this tribunal or this panel or this committee here is doing a miss can and acted on her own volition

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:35:59  
to the illness it was

Desmond Lee  2:36:00  
this one. Further up. Yeah, one point I'll get just one paragraph, basically the start of his statement. And in many ways, not dissimilar to what this tribunal this panel this committee has doing. If Miss Kahn acted on her own volition. Suppressed information, kept it away from anybody else on a frolic of her own. That is one state of mind. You understood what he's saying, Miss Miss, she just like she kept it to herself. It would be a very different state of mind if one made a mistake, consulted with senior party leaders owned up to it in a full and frank fashion, sought advice and counsel got that advice and counsel acted in a manner completely consistent with it counsel, and then be subject to an inquiry by the very same people who had given her advice. I think that's the heart of the matter that I'm getting at getting to Mr. Norton. And I think you understand what I'm saying that I think creates, in your words, an uninformed, a biased, and I'd say a completely jaundiced and further self serving disciplinary panel by the Workers Party. Would you agree? And look at Mr. Norton's reply. I think that in the context of everything that did transpire and did occur, it does pay me to say this, but I would agree. You see that agree with the three characterizations of your involvement as a member of the DP?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:37:28  
i This agree, because at the end of the day, when we met yudishe, and slo as part of the DP interview, did it mention that they're declared that the DEP is being formed? Yes. Right. So here, they mentioned that their surprise and I mean, retirement, Silvia be involved in the DEP. Why didn't they mention in Bristol for because the mystery is not the anger. The point that needs being made early on admission to the issue was the preta Miss she was in a state of anger.

Desmond Lee  2:38:13  
Okay, what?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:38:14  
I don't know, but she just went when she she shared her point, she was angry here. But she's targeted, she was looking Pritam. So basically, that she should have come up with all this openly. And the three of us there and see that they are against the formation of DPM indutrial. First in the DEP, but didn't took place. It didn't it didn't take place. And here they are seeing that to disagree. And the voice of the resentment of the DP consists of the two of us.

Desmond Lee  2:38:50  
Yeah, I understand your position, where you're coming from, but can I just put it to you and you tell me whether you disagree or agree here. You are aware of Miss Khan's lie on third August? Because she told you on the eighth on the fourth of October when she lied in Parliament again. You were one of the few people who knew Correct? One of a few people. Yes. And then later on, you become part of the disciplinary panel. Yes, to investigate why Miss can lie. Why she lied. And to assign the level of blameworthiness on her Correct. You're part of the panel. But yeah. So I asked you just now and you said that you did not think it is your responsibility as a member of the panel, to disclose to the CEC that appointed you what you knew, on the eighth of August and fourth of October, it is not your responsibility as per DP Yes. No, because there's not the nobody I'm asking you. You did not think you do not think it is your responsibility to tell the CC being part of the DP that you're part of the DP yes, that you Need to tell the CEC that hey, wait a minute. I know because Mr. Khan told me, according to you on as of August, yeah, you do not think it is your responsibility to tell the DTCC

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:40:11  
Yeah, because the DEP is focused on an investigation that needs to be done from it. Second to 29.

Desmond Lee  2:40:18  
That's the focus is tonight.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:40:21  
We form on the second, aka the first interview was on the eighth.

Desmond Lee  2:40:25  
And you did not think, as a member of the DEP knowing what you knew, on the eighth of August and the fourth of October, that you should have told all the Workers Party Carter's when you invited them and the members of the Workers Party to comment on this episode. He was not. He didn't feel it was necessary. Yeah.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:40:47  
To me, in general, I feel that, you know, the deal is moving ahead of what needs to be discussed what we were told to us on, again, starting from the eighth, until the 29th.

Desmond Lee  2:40:58  
And when the DP which included you submitted his recommendations to the si, si, and you say this was on the 30th of November, am I right?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:41:14  
Yes, that yes.

Desmond Lee  2:41:15  
That when you presented the recommendations, and the findings, that correct, it was not relevant in your mind to disclose. What you said happened on the eighth of August, and your knowledge on the fourth of October is not necessary.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:41:30  
Yes. Because we only present what transacted what we what we get it from eight to 29.

Desmond Lee  2:41:37  
So am I right to say that the Workers Party Si Si, only knew of what Miss Kahn had told you? And Mr. Singh and Mr. Lim. On the second of December press conference.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:41:57  
I'm sorry, again.

Desmond Lee  2:41:58  
Am I right to say that the Workers Party si si only knew of what you know, that means the eighth of August, you say that Miss Khan had confessed that she had lied in August that this fact was only known to the Workers Party CC on the second of December, and in Britain did mention that in the press conference race. So that's the first time is when the second general, the Workers Party tells the whole of Singapore Yes. And the media that three of you knew about Miss Khan's lie in as early as August. Yes, the CC. In fact, the whole Singapore only knew on the second of December. Yes. Yes. Thank you. I have no further questions for the moment. Mr. Chairman.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:42:45  
Can I just build on some of the points that Mr. Desmond asked. And I think he did ask you this. You did not discuss this issue of yourself. Mr. Whelan and Mr. Pritam Singh knowing of the truth on eighth of a saga. I'm sorry, you when you form the DEP, you did not discuss this issue at all amongst yourself. Whether is it relevant or not relevant to the DEP? It hears about the discussions that it was disclosed to you? And the three of you? None of you discussed this at all? I don't recall. So you said that it was in your view not relevant? And would it be correct to say that, in the view of Mr. Lim, and Mr. Pritam Singh, it was also irrelevant,

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:43:34  
I can, I can see something on their behalf. I think this was not

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:43:37  
discussed amongst requested disciplinary panel. And you kept mentioning that in your capacity, as a member of the disciplinary panel, this was not relevant. But if I were to ask you, in your capacity as deputy chairman, Vice Chairman of the Workers Party as a seasoned politician, would this fact be relevant?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:44:01  
This would be relevant

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:44:02  
CC, and to the rest of your card has to be made known. Not that you knew that you actually knew quite some time ago. And then Mishcon that actually confessed quite early on, in your view is not relevant and not important.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:44:20  
Again, the discussion that we had earlier is on the DP.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:44:25  
And I said, I'm not asking in the context of dp, I'm asking you, as a leader in your party. You don't feel that this issue that she actually confessed to all of you was not was actually not very important for the rest of the people to know.

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:44:39  
Because, I mean, why I do not want to disclose and why I kind of like not to get involved from it to the formation of dB, because it's a very sensitive issue of which one, preterm who knows who knows A race are very well. You get to be the only person or maybe human, silver. No, but my point is determined to do what he needs to do because he's very close to race. So I leave the method to Pritam. Right. So I believe that as long as Raisa doesn't want to come forward to confess, and he shouldn't be jumping the gun or to share with people of the confidential information that we have. So the state of mind I have dropped the this book, this particular particular episode. Yeah.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:45:40  
So if this point was not relevant, why was it surface on the second? The second December press conference?

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:45:48  
That one you have to ask Mr. Pritam, because he did the press conference and he mentioned in the press conference is coming from him.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:45:56  
Let me send me questions.

Desmond Lee  2:46:00  
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Manoj, I just want to

Faisal Abdul Manap  2:46:04  
sorry, Mr. admin, I prefer to be called by my name Pfizer. My name is Mr. Faisal. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Schurr. Mr. Faisal, would you like to take a break? I appreciate that you carry on, you let take a break. Then I asked Mr. Chairman for permission to take a short break.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:46:20  
10 minute break is now a 150. Let's adjourn briefly and come back here at about 1400 Okay, let's make it 15 minutes. So 2:05pm Thank you. Your Gentoo 1405