Committee of Privileges Hearing on 13 December 2021 - Ms Sylvia Lim (Part A): Transcript

Preamble:

What follows is a transcript (run through Otter.ai, with minimal editing - I just tagged the speakers) of the govsg video in the title.  

Though speech recognition technology has made leaps and bounds in recent years, it still isn't good enough for very accurate transcripts. So take the below as a free (for you, dear reader, at least) and rough transcript, with no warranty as to accuracy - for convenience instead of an accurate transcript. Nonetheless, I believe this will be helpful, especially for archival purposes.

If anyone wants to do or pay for manual transcription (building on the below or otherwise), that would be great. I'm not going to do 28 hours of manual transcription (with more videos almost certainly on the way).

The official transcripts may well come out publicly later. If they do, please use those instead. In the meantime, you may profit from the following; you can find links to all my COP transcripts at the index post.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  0:00  
So Jenna dance, please invite Miss Sylvia Lim to the witness table

take a seat for the record, do please state your name, occupation and positions your whole

Sylvia Lim  0:26  
Chairman. My name is Silvia Lin.

I am a member of parliament for Janet GRC. And I'm also the chairperson of the opposition Workers Party. These are my main posts.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  0:39  
The evidence we'll be giving today before the committee will be taken on office if you so desire, you can also take an affirmation clock with a minister please stand

Sylvia Lim  1:02  
on your left hand, and you may recite your I civilian swear that the evidence that I shall give before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help me God.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  1:16  
Please be seated. Muslim the committee of privileges is looking into the complaint made by the Leader of the House Miss Indrani. Raja against former member of St. Gong GRC mysteries icon for breach of privilege. Thank you for attending today's hearing to give evidence before the committee and to answer the questions which members of the committee would like to put to you? You do have a solemn obligation to answer questions truthfully, if you refuse to answer questions directly, or attempt to mislead the committee, such behavior will be an offence and in contempt of this committee. I would like now to call upon Mr. Winter for his questions.

Edwin Tong  1:56  
Good afternoon, Muslim. Muslim, thank you very much for being here to assist us up. In the course of this afternoon, I'll be asking you questions. And if there any documents, which we think might be relevant, I will also be asking you to produce them subject to the chairman's confirmation. So that's a piece of paper and some materials on your side. If I if I'd be grateful if you could please take a note of the documents as in when we discuss them and asked you to produce them. Is that okay? I'll take note of them. Yes. All right. Now, if there's anyone else who might be able to corroborate what you say, in the course of giving evidence, please also let us know. Yes. Now Muslim, let's start with eighth of August. I understand that that was the first time on which you became aware that Miss Kahn had lied in Parliament on the third of August, would that be correct?

Sylvia Lim  2:53  
On the eighth of August, that was the time when she miss Kahn, told Padamsee Singh, Faisal Munna and myself that what she had said on third August was not true.

Edwin Tong  3:11  
Yes, and my question was, was that the first time you became aware? That was the first time that she told us Yeah, first time that you became aware of Islam?

Sylvia Lim  3:20  
Yes, that was the first time I became aware. Thank

Edwin Tong  3:22  
you. How did you become aware? Was it at Mr. Singh's home? Or were you aware of it prior to arriving and Mr. Singh's home?

Sylvia Lim  3:32  
I was aware of it after I arrived at Mr. Singh's home.

Edwin Tong  3:36  
Were you aware of it before Miss Kahn told it to you?

Sylvia Lim  3:42  
If I recall correctly, what had happened was that the night before Britain contacted me to ask me whether I could come for a meeting at his home. So I said the next day, so I said, fine. And then we arranged a time. And upon arriving at his home the next day, which was at the eighth. He I think that was prior to miss Kahn and Mr. Faisal are arriving at the home because I came a bit earlier. And he had mentioned he mentioned to me then that he had had a conversation on the telephone with Miss Kahn the night before. And he had been querying her on the anecdote that she had shared on the third of August. And he he didn't find her answer satisfactory. So he told me that he he, he put the blunt question to her something along the lines of just tell me this, this thing even happened or not. And and he said that she had said that noise it didn't happen. And he told me that he was angry and I think he slammed on the phone. So you He narrated this to me when I was at his home on the eighth.

Edwin Tong  5:04  
So just to be clear, this was told to you on the eighth as his at his home, but he was narrating a conversation he had with Miss Condon the day before, correct?

Sylvia Lim  5:12  
That is correct. Right. Thank

Edwin Tong  5:13  
you. Can you describe to us? What happened thereafter from the time Miss Kahn arrived? I am in practice to open ended. It's a it was a meeting that I think started at 11am. If I'm not wrong about that time, yes. So the meeting lasted for about an hour or just pass an hour. Okay. And just to frame the issue, I believe that the meeting was initially called to discuss clarificatory statement in relation to a speech at Miss Kahn had made on the third of August, on polygamy marriages, polygamous marriages, as well as female genital cutting. That was what Mr. Faisal told us,

Sylvia Lim  5:58  
I can't remember what I myself knew about the purpose of this meeting, because I was only asked to come the night before, you know, so. But I think in the course of the communication between me and Britain can't remember whether it was on the on the seventh or on the eighth. I knew that Faisal as well as Reiser would be there. And at that time, of course, after the third August debate on the women's motion that was filed by our party, we do understand that there was some reaction from the Muslim community about certain topics that she had raised. So I didn't think too much about it. But I assumed that it was related to that. Yes.

Edwin Tong  6:42  
Okay. So the reaction that you spoke about, were some questions from several quarters, questioning the veracity of what Miss Carr had spoken about on a third of August. Is that right?

Sylvia Lim  6:55  
No, I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean, exactly. by that. But

Edwin Tong  7:00  
you describe what you mean by reaction. Oh, that

Sylvia Lim  7:02  
was actually reaction from the Muslim community about those issues that were raised. I believe there was polygamy and female genital cutting, from what I understood, because I wasn't personally monitoring that feedback, but from what I understood, it did not go down. Well. So it was in relation to that.

Edwin Tong  7:24  
And the purpose of meeting was to discuss, I guess, further follow up, or a response to what didn't go down. Well,

Sylvia Lim  7:33  
is that right? I assume so. But like I said, you know, prior to coming for the meeting, I I was not aware of this other issue that that this development, you know, regarding the the anecdote that she shared about going to the police station,

Edwin Tong  7:48  
the wireless that I mean, I'm focused on what you had understood going to the meeting, which was that Miss Kahn and Mr. Faisal will be there. You said earlier, right. Yeah, that's right. I knew that. So as far as that was concerned, before you had a conversation with Mr. Singh, at his home. On the eighth of August itself, your understanding was that the issue was to be discussed at his home was one that pertains to miss Kahn speech concerning polygamous marriages as well as female genital cutting. Is that right? Well,

Sylvia Lim  8:17  
prior to arrive at his house, I knew that of Faisal and Raisa would be there. So it's a logical assumption that I would have to is related to that issue.

Edwin Tong  8:26  
Okay. No, I must. I'm asking because I wanted to be clear that prior to arriving at his house, you had no inkling that another issue that will be raised would be Mrs. Cons, admission that she had spoken a lie in Parliament on the third of August. Would that be right?

Sylvia Lim  8:42  
Oh, yes. I didn't know that. This would come up before I arrived at Britain's house.

Edwin Tong  8:47  
Okay. Now. So when Miss Kahn arrived, can you walk us through what happened in just and then if you feel that if we feel that there are specifics to go into, we'll come back to you again. So give us a gist of what happened when Miss Kahn arrived, and how the meeting proceeded.

Sylvia Lim  9:04  
Okay, I'll try to recollect the best as I can. I can't remember whether she arrived first or Faisal arrive first, but I always definitely the first arrived and that's why Pridham shared with me that this other conversation had happened the night before. So when Faisal and raisel I mean, basically everybody had arrived. I think Pritam started the meeting, or the discussion by asking Reisa whether she had something to tell us and rice I started to get quite emotional. And so, you know, after a guess a few seconds or hesitation, I can't remember exactly, but she became quite tearful and started to say that what you had shared in Parliament on the third of August regarding going with the crime victim to the police station. was not true. But it was an anecdote that she had heard in a survivor's group. And, and then she started saying that almost in the same breath that, you know, she was a victim of when she was 18. And she was getting all, you know, distraught and saying that she had not gotten over the trauma and so on. So, so that was what started off the conversation on this topic. That was how it started.

Edwin Tong  10:34  
Can you tell us to the best of your recollection, the recount by Miss Kahn on this?

Tan Chuan-Jin:  10:43  
Perhaps before that, I think just for miscibility, I think this issue cropped up before we've decided that perhaps we use the term sexual assault. But then

Sylvia Lim  10:52  
finally, you know, because I initially did say that.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  10:55  
So we know that for internal understanding, but I think more for the purposes of when this goes on, I think we want to redact it accordingly,

Sylvia Lim  11:03  
and fine. I mean, so long, as you know, you don't think I'm recording in accurately. And it also, I mean, when we use the word, it also makes it very clear, and the seriousness of the sexual assault. So in that sense, there is some relevance in the words used

Tan Chuan-Jin:  11:20  
something. And we thought that perhaps we will keep doing, but we are fully cognizant that that was exactly a term used. Yes. Which is why we respond accordingly.

Edwin Tong  11:29  
Yes. Mr. Vice, I want to assure you that we have notes of what was said, and I think Mr. Singh had, and Mr. Faisal had put it in the same terms as you have. And we know the point you're making severity of the account that Miss Kahn, made to you when she saw you. And you can be assured that that's something we will take into account, not only the words you used, but the impact it has on the three of you at that meeting, so you can be assured of that.

Sylvia Lim  11:58  
Thank you. So make you continue.

Edwin Tong  12:04  
I, I forgotten what I'd asked you, or maybe you have forgotten what I asked you, I think

Sylvia Lim  12:09  
I think the question was, can we count in detail? What she narrated to us something along those lines, you

Edwin Tong  12:16  
had started off the account? And then I think, the chairman, interjected to speak about the term, yes, you can continue.

Sylvia Lim  12:22  
Alright, so as I said, she was distraught, she was crying, she said that she had been a victim of sexual assault, or when she was 18, when she was overseas, and she didn't have the courage to report it. And then, so we started to get quite concerned about her emotional state. I recall that Pritam asked her, you know, who, who else knows about this past incident involving herself. And she mentioned that her therapist knew her husband knew, and also paying low paying and yudishe Nothern also knew about this. And then the question was asked, I think, by Peter muscle, how about your parents, and then she said, her parents didn't know about this past incident. And then, of course, Faisal, I suppose being professionally trained counselor, he started to observe that she didn't seem emotionally stable. So the questions from him were more about, you know, whether she had sought any professional help to, you know, process what had happened to her to help her overcome the trauma and so on. And the answer we got from her really was that she didn't really seek any significant professional help. So it appeared that she was still traumatized by by the incident. So the conversation on at that meeting was centering around these these themes, I would say.

Edwin Tong  14:07  
Now, in relation to admission that she had spoken a lie in Parliament. Now, of course, this is second time you heard it because Mr. Singh gave you an account of it earlier.

Sylvia Lim  14:18  
That was a few minutes prior. Yes.

Edwin Tong  14:20  
What was your reaction?

Sylvia Lim  14:23  
My reaction was that this is something that needs to be corrected. But of course, how and when I didn't apply my mind strictly to it at that time, because when she came and told us all these things, you know, we were a bit overwhelmed by her well being and trying to see how she could, in a sense, stabilize yourself and sort of personal matters, before taking the next step in that sense to correct the record.

Edwin Tong  14:57  
Mr. Faisal also told us that he was overwhelmed as well. Would you say that that was? That's a fair description of what you just said, a fair description of how the three of you Mr. Singh, Mr. Faisal and yourself reacted to her admission?

Sylvia Lim  15:17  
I think our first instinct was that because, you know, she was in such a fragile condition that we certainly wanted to show her as much understanding as possible, because after all, I mean, perhaps apart from Pfizer, who has some professional trading better myself, we are not trained to assess or, or deal with, you know, victims of sexual crime. So we decided that it was best for for us to give her some encouragement and emotional support and focus on stabilizing herself first, you know, before talking about the the other issue which had to come in, which was about how to correct a parliamentary record.

Edwin Tong  15:58  
Mr. Singh told us that when he was aware that she was consulting a therapist, he was relieved or assured, because she was getting professional help. Did that also strike you?

Sylvia Lim  16:10  
She did say that she had a therapist, but I, and in that sense, yes. You know, at least she wasn't alone. But, of course, we were not aware of the intensity of the therapy or what was being done, but that she had someone you know, that she had consulted, but we didn't know the frequency or whatever.

Edwin Tong  16:32  
But coming back to the admission of the lie Mislim, you're an experienced politician, you would have immediately appreciated that. This was a serious matter that had to be addressed, correct? Yes, it was. It's a question of time, as you put it, when's the appropriate time?

Sylvia Lim  16:49  
Right? Yes, that was my consideration

Edwin Tong  16:51  
right. Now. You have told us what you thought, or your reaction to what she told you and Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal, about the lie. Now tell us what Then did you say to miss Kahn about this admission of the lion Parliament

Sylvia Lim  17:12  
on the eighth of August, on the eighth of August? I don't recall saying anything to her about that, specifically, because I didn't feel at that moment that it was appropriate for me to add to the emotional pressure that she seemed to be facing. So I decided to not address that issue on the eighth of August. I did not say anything to her about it.

Edwin Tong  17:37  
So you didn't ask her a question. You didn't give her any guidance as to what to do. Nor did you talk about the next steps concerning the lion parliament. Would I be right,

Sylvia Lim  17:47  
we will mainly focusing on stabilizing her as as we saw her. So our questions were more about for the square the circle with a family, for her to get professional help. But I did not talk to her about the next steps about correcting the record. Yes.

Edwin Tong  18:10  
So the answer to my question will be no, those steps were not taken. And

Sylvia Lim  18:14  
I did not say anything on the eighth of August about this. Okay.

Edwin Tong  18:18  
I'd like to show you parts of Mr. Singh and Mr. Pfizer's evidence of the same meeting and just ask you some questions from now beginning with Mr. Faisal. You could have a there's a bundle of edited transcripts. Yes. So if you could This is Mr. Pfizer's evidence he gave it on the ninth of December. If I could please ask you to look at page 109 of this bundle. Sorry club. It's the edited one. Yeah. Do you have that?

Sylvia Lim  19:18  
109

Edwin Tong  19:18  
Yes, yes. About 1/3 down from the page. You will see I had asked Mr. Faisal okay, I'm referring to a reaction do you see that Muslim Do you see that?

Sylvia Lim  19:31  
No. One

Edwin Tong  19:39  
so can I just check with the clock that we are on the same page? Literally. I will have a look. Differently Okay, now you have it. 1/3 Okay, I'm

Sylvia Lim  20:00  
referring to your reaction. Yes,

Edwin Tong  20:01  
I have it. Yes. So I was asking him about the same occasion on the eighth of August and asked him to about his reaction. And he said, as I mentioned, I was shocked because I was overwhelmed. But the first statement that she made, that I said, let me be clear. Okay. I have heard in detail your evidence earlier. And I don't need to revisit that. I'm focused on whether you are mister Mr. Singh, had any reaction to admission that she lied in Parliament just a few days before that. As I mentioned, just now, we were overwhelmed by the first statement, as I mentioned, as human being can I be overwhelmed by certain things? And suddenly I changed to be become like startled, why are you lying? That I said, No. I mean, he says no, because suddenly, there's a change of reaction. Mr. Faisal, perhaps I put it this way, we all have a range of emotions. Correct. But we also have responsibilities in the end that over the page, he continued to give us evidence as to how he felt overwhelmed by it. And you can critique cast your eye over the next few lines.

Sylvia Lim  21:02  
We're sorry. Okay. Where are you referring?

Edwin Tong  21:08  
I'm over at 110. Yeah. So there's a portion just before the midpoint of the page, where he talks about the sequence when raesha mentioned the sexual assault, overwhelmed. And he talks about his concern, but also concerned about the lie, but also his concern for her. Yes, and then at sorry, there's no line reference, but about 1/3 from the bottom of the page. I asked him, well, you're so overwhelmed that you cannot say anything at all, to the admission that she had lied. And he says, this is the truth, I'm telling you. Now, can I ask you to turn to page 114? Yes. And I asked him at the bottom of the page. You told us very clearly that throughout the time that the meeting after she uttered those words, none of you discussed it. And there was one one for three questions from the bottom. You have it? Mr. Faisal was answering my question. I said Hang on. Do you see that?

Sylvia Lim  22:23  
Oh, yes. Okay. Okay.

Edwin Tong  22:25  
So I said, Hang on. You told us very clearly that throughout the time of the meeting after she uttered those words, none of you discussed it. And there was an he says yes. Zero discussion on it. Correct? He says, correct. Do I characterize the evidence correctly? Correct. zero evidence on it. Not a word was spoken about it by any of you? And he says, yes, that I recall. Not a question was asked at all. Yes. Not asked to her amongst herself. No. And basically, his point was that there was zero engagement on this issue with her. And by the three of you. Would that also fit with your own recollection of the meeting?

Sylvia Lim  23:00  
What I recollect it? Yes, is in accordance with what Mr. Faisal described, that we were more focused on her emotional well being and also that she needed to square the metal with her parents before anything else could be done. So we did not speak on what were the next steps? Because, I mean, for me, at least, I thought that the pressure at that point in time would have been perhaps too much for her. That was my speaking for myself.

Edwin Tong  23:29  
I mean, I understand. I mean, you're describing to us what were what were the considerations on your mind? Yes. But these were not articulated to her? Yes. Correct. Not articulated. Okay. Now, could I please ask you to pick up Mr. Singh's evidence, and this time, it is the unedited one the raw ones, because I didn't have time to make reference to the edited versions that just came. So this is the raw version Muslim. Now, this is Mr. Singh's evidence on the 10th of December. If I could please ask you to go to page 2966.

You will see the page numbers appear at various junctures throughout the page.

Sylvia Lim  24:18  
Does it start with but I'm not sure. Also not sure whether you shared it with me.

Edwin Tong  24:22  
All right. So if you go to Line 14, this one does line, Mr. Top number so it's easier to focus. So line 14, I asked him, Can you give us an account of this meeting in summary, beginning from the time when miscount arrived and so on. So just giving you the reference point when he started giving evidence, and Mr. Singh then proceeds to talk about the meeting. If I could invite you to turn over the next page to 297 and somewhere about line 10.

Sylvia Lim  24:55  
To seem Patri

Edwin Tong  24:56  
is to nine seven but nine runs over the next page. physically, she says it was very traumatic for her line nine and 10. And because it was very traumatic for her, she told an untruth in Parliament, because she feels strongly about, you know, issues of sexual assault. And arising from there. She she did. She did what she did in Parliament. That was suggest. She goes on to say that, actually, that part of the meeting wasn't very long. At page 298, line one, and the conversation actually was very short. You have that Muslim?

Sylvia Lim  25:40  
I used to nine seven.

Edwin Tong  25:43  
Yes. I'm at the bottom of 297. But moving on to the start of 298. Okay. Yes, yes. Still part of Mr. Singh's testimony, conversation actually was very short. And if I could invite you to look at the start of page 299. Yes. She says my he says my guidance to her was to speak to your parents about it. Because in my mind, this would have to be corrected in Parliament. But before we can even. And I said, Did you tell her that? Sorry, did you tell her that? No, not on that day? Not on that day? Why not? I think at that point, given a condition given a state, it was more important for me to tell her that looks picture parents. And when she left? I did tell her we'll have to speak to this issue. But tell your parents first I told her that. Do you recall this part of the conversation that Mr. Singh had with Miss Kahn?

Sylvia Lim  26:37  
About 299? Is it?

Edwin Tong  26:39  
Yes, what I've just read back to you, because

Sylvia Lim  26:43  
it's quite a long start at 296. And I supposed to confirm it.

Edwin Tong  26:48  
Rather give you the context of the conversation. But the only parts, which Mr. Singh said he spoke directly to her appears at the courts in 299. Okay, but rather than just show you today, I wanted to give you the context to which the statement was said. But as far as Mr. Singh's evidence is concerned, those were the those parts in quarter 299 were the words he spoke to her. So my question to you is, do you recall Mr. Singh speaking these words to miss Kahn? And were you there?

Sylvia Lim  27:19  
I recall him saying that she had to speak to her parents that I recall.

Edwin Tong  27:25  
That I'm recall, you recall, yes. The rest of page, which

Sylvia Lim  27:29  
exactly is it that you're asking?

Edwin Tong  27:33  
Look at the start of 299. Okay, my guidance will speak to your parents about it, because in my mind, I read that to you earlier. And then over the page at line 10. I think at that point, given her condition, it was more important for me to tell her that, look, speak to your parents. Then he says, And when she left, so I assumed this is a different occasion. I did tell her in quotes, again, we'll have to speak to this issue. But tell your parents first. I told her that.

Sylvia Lim  28:07  
And when she left the power, he says and when she left what he told her that I don't think I was there.

Edwin Tong  28:14  
Okay. So you would have been there and heard him say speak to your parents? Yes. But you weren't there when? As she was leaving. And those words were said

Sylvia Lim  28:24  
I didn't accompany her out. So I don't think I heard what he may have said to her at that point.

Edwin Tong  28:31  
Okay. Did Mr. Singh on what we heard what Mr. Faisal said there was zero evidence zero statements and discussions. Did Mr. Singh say anything else to miss Carr? On this issue on the line?

Sylvia Lim  28:49  
I think the main thing was that she had to speak to her parents. That's what I recall. Yeah. And I understood it to be, in a sense, a first necessary step before anything else could be done. That's what I understood.

Edwin Tong  29:06  
Okay. I understand. And, to the best of your knowledge, nothing else was said by Mr. Singh.

Sylvia Lim  29:12  
I, like I said, I wasn't with him and Miss country and all we know, so. Yeah, I mean, I was basically about telling her parents about making sure that she gets therapy to stabilize herself, you know, that was the main concern of that eat August. discussion on this topic.

Edwin Tong  29:34  
Okay. So your your takeaway from all of these? When I say all of these, I mean, the discussion on the lie on the eighth of August, would be that it's important to clarify this in Parliament. But in your words, a necessary step would be for her to speak to a family first. Correct. That's how I understood it. Yes. And that's your main takeaway from the eighth of August meeting concerning the lie. Would I be right?

Sylvia Lim  29:58  
main takeaway, I suppose. Yes, yes. Okay.

Edwin Tong  30:01  
Now, Mr. Faisal told us that the meeting then proceeded to discuss the statement that she was asked to put up concerning concerning clarifications on the speeches she made a few days ago.

Sylvia Lim  30:16  
So, you know, the part that you just referred me to a 299. And when she left it, of course, to praise when she when she was leaving, I presume so so. So now you're coming back? Back to them? Yeah,

Edwin Tong  30:29  
I'm coming back, because I wanted to look at it from the angle or the issue of there being two separate issues being discussed. Yeah. One was the lie. And the other one was a statement. So I wanted to follow through on the point of the lie, and I think we have done that. So now I'm going back to the part of the meeting where you were discussing the clarificatory statement that she was to make on her speech,

Sylvia Lim  30:51  
regarding polygamy and FGC, I think, yes.

Edwin Tong  30:56  
If yes, so can you give us a gist of what was discussed how you had left off? And what conclusions were drawn from the meeting on what steps to take?

Sylvia Lim  31:10  
I mean, my impression, personally, was that I was probably coming into that discussion on the reaction of the Muslim community to polygamy. In FGC, I was probably coming in a bit late into the discussion. My impression was that I think Faisal had been engaging, right. So that was my understanding on this issue prior to going to Putnams house, so I wasn't part of that initial background to it. So when this topic came up at the house, it appeared that, you know, they had already sort of reached a point where they could more or less agree on, on what needed to be addressed. And from what I understood, I mean, whatever call there was some discussion about the the points raised and what, what she wanted to say, to explain about a speech. So there was some discussion on that, but it was a bit detailed for me, because like I say, I was coming late into the discussion, and I don't really understand those issues very well. And then the final, I suppose, point of conclusion of that was that she would leave the meeting on the eighth of August to draft a statement. And then, you know, she would run the statement by us, or at least in by a few of us, and then if the statement was deemed to be appropriate, then she would post it on Facebook.

Edwin Tong  32:42  
Okay, so let me summarize it. The issues concerning FTC and polygamy had, prior to eight August already been discussed between Mr. Faisal and Miss Miss

Sylvia Lim  32:55  
Kahn, I believe so. And I think Peter Moss was aware of it. Yeah. Yeah. But I myself wasn't involved in that. Okay. Yes.

Edwin Tong  33:02  
And at the meeting, I assume the meeting will have discussed the kind of content that the statement should contain in clarifying

Sylvia Lim  33:13  
it would be because it has to be relevant to what will be posted out,

Edwin Tong  33:16  
right, because the purpose of the meeting was really to put out a clarificatory statement in light of the adverse reactions, correct.

Sylvia Lim  33:24  
I want I don't know whether you call it clarificatory statement, but perhaps a further explanation. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Edwin Tong  33:30  
All right. I understand. And the upshot of the meeting was that Miss Carr would leave the meeting, go back discuss, sorry, put up a draft, discuss it further, and then eventually put it up. Yes. Which do your recollection happen? Correct? I believe so. Okay, were you privy to the discussions on the draft?

Sylvia Lim  33:47  
I believe that the final draft was sent to me. And I didn't have any issue with it myself. So I didn't object to it. And I was okay with it.

Edwin Tong  33:58  
In your view, that the draft that was prepared by Miss Kahn that was sent to you, comport with the the matters discussed at the meeting. Now, does that reflect what you discuss at the meeting?

Sylvia Lim  34:11  
Even on the FGC and polygamy? It was on those topics from what I remember. Yes.

Edwin Tong  34:17  
But she would have taken on board the comments discussions made at the eighth of August meeting in preparing the draft ICO.

Sylvia Lim  34:23  
I think the whole how shall I say the tenor of that discussion was more. It was not an instruction giving session. Let's put it that way. Alright, because these were issues that she wanted to raise because she felt strongly about them. And, and certainly, I don't think it was the intention of Faisal or Pritam or anyone to force her to say anything in the posts or explanatory posts that she was not comfortable with. So, so the general understanding was that she had to own those things that she was explaining, but you know, The role, I guess, of Pfizer and us is just to see that is, you know, guess what? it appropriately? You know,

Edwin Tong  35:08  
yes, I understand. I mean, she will have she made a speech, and she will be making the post. So she's got to own it. From that perspective. That's what you're saying. But at the meeting, did she display any reluctance to put up a post? Or did she appear to take on board the points that yourself and Mr. Faisal and Mr. Singh were making?

Sylvia Lim  35:29  
My reading is that she agreed that there will need to be some follow up from her side to address some of the concerns that have been raised about her initial speech on these topics,

Edwin Tong  35:43  
and what she receptive to and understand the points that Mr. Pfizer were making at the meeting.

Sylvia Lim  35:50  
I didn't sense that she was resistant. I mean, she, she, she listened and was processing it, you know? Yeah.

Edwin Tong  35:57  
And eventually, when you saw a draft of the post at some stage before it was posted, you were quite happy with it.

Sylvia Lim  36:03  
Or you didn't see an issue with it, because I can't recall distinctly now, but but my sense was that it generally was in line with the conversation.

Edwin Tong  36:12  
All right, thank you. Now, after Miss Kahn left the meeting, and I understand from Mr. Singh that she left first.

Sylvia Lim  36:26  
I can't remember but it may have been okay.

Edwin Tong  36:29  
He he told us that he walked her to the door, and she left first. And that yourself and Mr. Pfizer left, probably shortly thereafter. Was that your likely I suppose? Was any conversation amongst the three of you without Miss Kahn present concerning the lie in Parliament?

Sylvia Lim  36:47  
I don't think there was. No, yeah. So we will kind of I suppose in a bit of a shock. And our I mean, we knew the situation was serious in that sense, but at the same time, needed careful handling.

Edwin Tong  37:06  
Yeah, so I'm not going into what you thought. Now I just want to know whether anything was said and discuss amongst the three of you? I don't think so. I'm asking this because I understand why it may not have been raised with Miss Kahn at the meeting, given the evidence that we have heard from yourself, Mr. Faisal and Mr. Singh, given her emotional state, but now she has left. And the three of you are the senior leaders of the Workers Party. You've just heard it admission by one of your one of your Party MPs. That Ally has been said in Parliament. I think all three of you and you this morning, this afternoon, have told us that that's a serious matter that has to be corrected. So now she has left the meeting. Question is would you not have wanted to discuss with your fellow colleagues? What next steps should be taken, at least from your perspective?

Sylvia Lim  37:56  
I mean, I knew in my mind that the next steps have to come. But at that point in time, you know, we didn't talk about the next steps.

Edwin Tong  38:09  
Okay, so nothing was discussed amongst the few of you and these thoughts that you've just explained were articulated? Correct?

Sylvia Lim  38:18  
I don't think I said anything about it at the time. Yes.

Edwin Tong  38:21  
Okay. And to be clear, neither did Mr. Faisal nor Mr. or Mr. Singh?

Sylvia Lim  38:27  
I don't recall that being discussed.

Edwin Tong  38:30  
Okay. And I'm still on Eighth of August. Okay. Now, at any stage thereafter, and I'm not focused on a broader period for the rest of August. Whether or not this issue had come up between yourself and Miss Kahn, first of all, did you talk to her about it? Did you ask her? Has she spoken to her family? Has she decided on how to clarify the lie? Did you discuss this with her?

Sylvia Lim  38:55  
I did not speak to Mr. Khan, myself, as far as I recall. And the reason for that is that I left the matter, really, to Britain to follow up. And I like to explain why.

Edwin Tong  39:10  
Okay. I'll let you explain why. But I just understand your evidence. So to be clear, you did not speak to Miss Kahn, or communicate with her on the line at all, for the rest of August. I did not do that yesterday, would that be the same for the rest of September as well?

Sylvia Lim  39:32  
I think in September also, I did not talk to her, because I found rather she had come up with shingles in September and then I think she got a leave of speaker not to attend the parliamentary sitting. So my own assumption was that it could have been stress induced. So I decided that I would just you know, wait for a while.

Edwin Tong  39:57  
So for the rest of August and September. You did not discuss with Miss Kahn. The question of the lie in Parliament. Correct? I did not. Yes. Did you send her any text messages or email messages? Any other communication in writing? About this over this issue? I don't think I did. Yes. Okay. Now you're going to explain to us why you left it to Mr. Singh?

Sylvia Lim  40:23  
Yes, I mean, basically, I left it to Pritam to follow up with her because he knows her best. And historically, I mean, she was helping him in his meet people session in universe, I think for about a year prior to the GE. And I think he had some communications on and off with her family and so on. So even throughout her stint as a parliamentarian, I think he was the one that basically was guiding her and, and she would go to him with questions, and so on. So he was the one that I think was closest in that sense and knew her best. So as I mentioned earlier, I was concerned that if she was pressured in that sense, by things she couldn't handle because of our emotional condition, then it might not be the best thing. We don't know what reaction she would have. So I decided that I would let leave it to Putin to follow up on the matter with her for these reasons.

Edwin Tong  41:38  
Okay. So those are the reasons why you left it entirely to pretend to follow up with Miska. Right? Yes. Okay. Going back to my previous timeframe for the rest of August and September, did you have a discussion with Mr. Singh, or with Mr. Faisal, on the lie that Miss Kahn spoke in Parliament?

Sylvia Lim  41:58  
I don't think I spoke with Faisal for preterm. I also can't distinctly remember, I may have asked him certain questions about how Reisa was, but I don't think that I spoke about the issue of the lie.

Edwin Tong  42:11  
So let me understand it quite carefully. Did you discuss with either of them, what steps will be taken to clarify the lie in Parliament?

Sylvia Lim  42:23  
I did not discuss with them I don't think from August to September, on this issue at all. I can't recall. I don't think so.

Edwin Tong  42:30  
What about any discussion on when that might happen? For example, you were aware of the lie on the eighth of August. The next setting was on the 13th of September, about five weeks away. Did you prior to that discuss with Mr. Singh or Mr. Faisal, as to whether the light would be clarified in parliament in September?

Sylvia Lim  42:52  
I did not discuss with them.

Edwin Tong  42:54  
Did you have a sense as to what Mr. Singh's timeframe would be? Did you discuss that with him?

Sylvia Lim  43:01  
I did not discuss any specific timeframe with him. But what I did note, of course, was that on the prior to October, sitting on the first of October, he had sent an email to all the MPs in WP re reminding everyone I would say, alright, of the standards expected in Parliament and, and that if anything that was said in Parliament could not be substantiated, then the MP would face being hauled up before the committee of privileges. So I do not know whether the committee has seen this email because I brought it along.

Edwin Tong  43:39  
We have it. Mr. Singh helpfully give us a copy. Okay. Surely we can. All right. But this email was not addressed to the question of the lie by Miss Kahn. Specifically Correct.

Sylvia Lim  43:52  
To me, I mean, it was a big nudge to her. That's how I read it. But if you look at the words, it's just the team.

Edwin Tong  44:00  
Yes. Yes. It's to all the Workers Party MPs. That's right. And there's no Express reference to miscounts lie in Parliament. Correct. No Express reference. And the only persons on the email chain who are aware that it was a lie, would be yourself, Mr. Singh, Mr. Faisal and Miss Connor self correct? Yes.

Sylvia Lim  44:21  
And I read this myself as basically that Pritam had his eye on the matter. And that's why he sent this email. You know, he probably assess that. This was an appropriate way to move the issue forward with Miss Kahn. And that was why it was sent. So I was actually comforted to see the email.

Edwin Tong  44:47  
Going back to my original sequence of questions. In this same period throughout August and September, did you have occasion to speak to Miss Kahn about whether her family were aware of the sexual assault

Sylvia Lim  45:01  
Amy Weathershield inform them.

Edwin Tong  45:02  
Yes, that's right. I don't think I spoke to her about whether she had informed them or whether through some other means they became aware.

Sylvia Lim  45:10  
I don't think I asked her anything about that. Yes.

Edwin Tong  45:13  
I asked you this question, because early on, you told us that your takeaway from the meeting on the eighth of August was that her family knowing would be a necessary step for clarification in politics. Right, right. So one of the things that would need to be done is to ensure that a family became aware of the sexual assault became before it became public. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  45:32  
And as I mentioned earlier, as well, I had my reasons for for leaving the method of preterm to follow up on so I did not myself, speak to her on these matters, to confirm whether what had been done or not done.

Edwin Tong  45:50  
But your understanding from the eighth of August meeting was that the family being aware of it would be a necessary step or a precondition to the matter being ventilated in Parliament. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  46:03  
I believe that that was the necessary and that was how she also perceived the issue. Because she mentioned that, you know, this, her past experience was very integral to explain why she told that untruth in the first place. And because her parents didn't know, she would not be able to publicly come forward with it until her parents knew. So that was our understanding. Yes.

Edwin Tong  46:34  
Okay. So you you drew that understanding also from what she said.

Sylvia Lim  46:38  
Yeah, yes.

Edwin Tong  46:40  
All right. Now, this early on, you articulated various reasons on which USA led you to leave Mr. Singh to deal with Miss canonet. Handle the problem? Yes. Right. Did Mr. Singh know that this is how you saw the problem and how you chose to leave it to him?

Sylvia Lim  47:04  
I believe he would know because that had been the way that he had been dealing with Miss Kahn for quite a while.

Edwin Tong  47:12  
You said you believe he would No. Do I take it that you did not articulate this to him?

Sylvia Lim  47:18  
I did not articulate this to him. Yes. But I believe he knew that. That was my thinking.

Edwin Tong  47:23  
Okay, were there any messages, emails, anything on social media, messaging, or any other form of written communication between yourself, Mr. FISA and Mr. Singh? Concerning what the Workers Party would do to clarify the lie, spoken by Miss Kahn in Parliament on the third of August?

Sylvia Lim  47:47  
Was there anything you mean in written communication?

Edwin Tong  47:51  
Did you discuss by email with Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal, did you send any messages concerning what to do when this would come up? Are the parents aware? Anything that concerns clarifying?

Sylvia Lim  48:03  
I think I think all our discussions were not written in emails or social media. As far as I know.

Edwin Tong  48:13  
Were there any me for example, would would you have discussed what Miss Kahn would say if she were to clarify the matter in Parliament? Which timeframe was I'm focused on August and September still? No, not yet. No, not yet. Okay. You asked me which timeframe? Because obviously in October, yes, in the lead up to the November setting where she did clarify, there were exchange of messages concerning what Miss Kahn would say, right.

Sylvia Lim  48:41  
What exchange of messages but in October, there were some drafts that Miss Kahn came up with, and then you know, we provided our input as necessary. Yeah. Okay. That's

Edwin Tong  48:53  
what you refer to. Yeah. Because

Sylvia Lim  48:55  
I just wanted to clarify the question. Okay. Okay.

Edwin Tong  48:58  
I wanted to also I understand what you're saying so that I'll come back to it because I'm not in October timezone. Okay. Okay.

So if I understand your evidence correctly, you will appreciate it that the lie lying in Parliament was a serious and grave matter. It had to be clarified in Parliament at some stage. All three of you were concerned with miscounts. If I may just use a general term emotional ability to cope with clarify with the public Parliament at that stage, and more importantly, you will concern that a family was not yet aware of the issue. And both yourself and Miss Faisal left it to Mr. Singh to handle the problem. Would that be an accurate summary of what happened?

Sylvia Lim  49:53  
I can't speak for Mr. Faisal, though, so you're not here to I mean, speak for himself on that matter? Yes.

Edwin Tong  50:00  
So first of all yourself, would that be yes, for myself?

Sylvia Lim  50:02  
Yes. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, on the eighth of August, when this revelation was made to us that she had told this untruth in Parliament. Her condition was such that she was very emotional. And we felt that at that point in time, it was important for us to show her some emotional support. And she needed to stabilize herself, as well as you know, square that, that past trauma with a family before an index steps could be made.

Edwin Tong  50:35  
So the answer to my question is whether it's an accurate summary will be yes, to get along with the points that you just made.

Sylvia Lim  50:40  
Yeah, I prefer to summarize myself. Okay. All right. Sure.

Edwin Tong  50:44  
I don't know, put words in your mouth. So always be happy with what you say. Now, you said you can't speak for Mr. Faisal. But certainly, from your perspective as the chairman of the party, knowing that at least two other senior members of the Workers Party were aware of what is a serious and grave issue, which had to be dealt with. From your perspective. Did you know or think that Mr. Pfizer was actively dealing with the problem himself? Or did you know or think that Mr. Pfizer was leaving it to Mr. Singh to deal with?

Sylvia Lim  51:18  
I have to say that I'm not aware. I mean, I do not know when what Pfizer did or did not do.

Edwin Tong  51:24  
So from your perspective, you left it to Mr. Singh? Yes, I did. But you did not know it. Mr. Faisal, similarly did so. Or if he actively spoke to miss Kahn, or dealt with Miss

Sylvia Lim  51:34  
Kahn? Yeah, I'm not sure because it's entirely possible that he may have followed up with her on the therapy part. I mean, for example, so I don't think I want to speculate because I don't know for a fact.

Edwin Tong  51:47  
Okay, I understand. Throughout this period of time, we've heard your evidence that there was nothing exchanged between the three of you in writing, concerning surveys and so on. Right, we heard that. Now, as far as you're aware, were there any other objective steps taken in August and September, which would prepare and tend towards Miss Kahn, coming to Parliament to explain the lie and clarifying her position?

Sylvia Lim  52:22  
For myself, I'm not aware. Like you say, what was the question? Again? Any?

Edwin Tong  52:29  
Sorry, I, maybe I'll rephrase it. And again, I'm still in the August and September time period, okay. Throughout this time period, was there any objective steps, the main steps that we can look at now and point to which were taken, which will be consistent with Miss Kahn, coming to Parliament to clarify the lie and explain the truth in Parliament?

Sylvia Lim  52:58  
I'm not aware of any as you mentioned, what was the word you use?

Edwin Tong  53:05  
Objective says, but I think that's the lawyer me speaking. So you can say any steps anything? Yeah.

Sylvia Lim  53:10  
Because, you know, as I mentioned, you know, the event happened in August. We got to know about the fact that she said that she told an untruth on the eighth. By the time September, Kinch was done with shingles. So I do not think that anything in that sense, concrete was done.

Edwin Tong  53:29  
Okay. To your to the best of your knowledge, no such steps were taken, as far as I know. Okay. Now.

Throughout this period of time, again, August and September, there would have been occasion for you to have interacted with Miss Kahn. Correct. Me as you. I know, you're not from the same constituency or GRC. But you would have occasion to meet at public events, perhaps at party meetings, would you not

Sylvia Lim  54:08  
during this period of August to September. The only thing I can recall is that we probably had a Zoom meeting to discuss some Parliament preparations for parliament. So she attended me I didn't have any one to one interactions with her as such. Not that I recall. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  54:32  
Okay. Now, again, in this period of time, did you discuss or consult with anyone in your party about Miss Khan's lie and the steps to be taken? Besides, I know you said you didn't speak to Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal, but were there anyone else that you spoke to? No? Okay. Were you aware if anyone else were aware of misc can slide parliament? You mean among the MPs amongst the Workers Party? The MPs

Sylvia Lim  55:00  
as far as I knew only Pritam Faisal and myself are aware.

Edwin Tong  55:05  
Okay. What about the broader Workers Party membership at all? Okay, I will give you some context. Miss Kahn told us that she has she had confided in Mr. Yudhishthira, Navin and Miss lopi. So at least those two who are current members of Workers Party were aware. Now, from your perspective, I know, you may or may not have known about that at that time. But to the best of your knowledge. In August and September, were there any other workers party members who were aware that Miss Kahn had spoken a lie in parliament on August?

Sylvia Lim  55:41  
From my understanding? I mean, you dish and paying were told by her when she did that, I don't know. But, I mean, I believe they were aware.

Edwin Tong  55:54  
Okay. Well, anyone else to your knowledge aware?

Sylvia Lim  56:00  
That can recall anyone being aware,

Edwin Tong  56:03  
okay, so it must ever follow that you did not tell this to anyone else. Period. Right? Yes. Okay. August, September, right. Yes. August, September. Now, I'm now past August, September period. So you told us that on the first of October, there was an email that was sent by Mr. Singh. Okay, so we heard about that. Now, Mr. Singh also told us that subsequent to that email, on the third of October, he went to miss Khan's home and had a discussion with her concerning the fourth of October parliamentary sitting. Were you aware of that? At that time?

Sylvia Lim  56:37  
I was aware of it the next day when Putin told me that he had gone to our house the night before or the day before?

Edwin Tong  56:43  
Okay, so you're not aware of it on the third of October? Okay. On the fourth of October, when you became aware of it, can you tell us when you became aware at which point of time on that day?

Sylvia Lim  56:56  
I'm sorry, I really can't remember what time it was. But I remember Pritam telling me about the fact that he had gone to home the day before. Quite likely it would have been after the exchange with Minister I think, but I can't recall. Exactly.

Edwin Tong  57:16  
To give you some timeline, Parliament set at 11am on the fourth of October, 1 hour and a half a PQ. And by 1230, Minister Shanmugam has stood up to make a short external statement. Right. And it concerned this issue, that entire exchange took place over the next 12 to 13 minutes. And then the rest of parliamentary business continued. So as far as you remember, it was after this exchange, correct?

Sylvia Lim  57:48  
Most likely, likely, yeah. Okay. But not like immediately, you know, but sometime during the day,

Edwin Tong  57:55  
were you present during the exchange? Yes, I was present. So you heard what she said? Yes, I did. You first saw when when she first stood up and explained. And she had you remember, she was asked various questions. And if you'd like to refresh yourself, there's a copy of the handout somewhere around I can remember we do okay. Were you surprised that her response?

Sylvia Lim  58:19  
I wouldn't say surprised, but I was very frustrated at the point.

Edwin Tong  58:26  
Why were you frustrated?

Sylvia Lim  58:29  
I was frustrated because it didn't appear that there had been any progress made on moving towards correcting the record and in fact, at the exchange or the clarifications, there was doubling down on the untruth.

Edwin Tong  58:48  
Okay, earlier, you told us that after the eighth of August meeting, thereafter, there was no other communication discussion whatsoever in August and September. And you left it to Mr. Singh, and also did not discuss with Mr. Singh or with Mr. Faisal. So the next point in time in the timeline that this issue, confronted you after eighth of August was this occasion on the part on the fourth of October insolvent. And you said you were frustrated with miscounts answers? I'm just trying to understand that because you would not have known by that time, what Mr. Singh had discussed or greet with Mrs. Kahn that she would do if this matter came up, correct me I didn't know. Yes, yes. So for all you know, this might have been an answer consistent with Mr. Singh's directions.

Sylvia Lim  59:37  
I will find that unbelievable, fair enough.

Edwin Tong  59:41  
But you would not have prior knowledge of what the game plan would be. So to say.

Sylvia Lim  59:50  
I will not be able to believe that Pritam had asked her to lie or give her a choice to lie. I mean, that was definitely did not our understanding of what should be done. So

Edwin Tong  1:00:04  
the fact that she did stood up and did continue to lie and in fact more than once you said frustrated you, but would also have caused you some alarm? And I would suppose I would, I would, I would presume, some degree of consternation as well, when you're the party chairman. This exchange has just happened. It's excessive, baited the lie that was first spoken. And now at least three senior members of the Workers Party are present in Parliament whilst the lie was being spoken. So what was your reaction? Given what I've just described, what was your reaction in the immediate aftermath of hearing this exchange with Minister Shanmugam?

Sylvia Lim  1:00:42  
No, of course, when she basically doubled down on the untruths, like I said, I was very frustrated because the situation had been made worse in that sense. And I after the exchange was over, okay, I was actually thinking through of some of the, what should be done next, and with what urgency because to me, the metal had become more urgent now. So I I think, about an hour later, so, I messaged Miss Kahn, because I was also concerned about where she was, what she was doing and so on. So we agreed to meet I think at the ellos office, leading visions office sometime in the afternoon.

Edwin Tong  1:01:37  
Okay. Just thank you. Just so I get the timeline, right. You message Miss Kahn sometime in the afternoon, shortly. It

Sylvia Lim  1:01:47  
was about an hour after the exchange something like that. Yeah. Okay. Would

Edwin Tong  1:01:51  
this be before after you spoke with Mr. Singh? Because remember, you told us

Sylvia Lim  1:01:55  
to say fighting for Yeah. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:01:59  
So can you please pick up the submission by Miss Kahn? Two. Corp data seven December?

Yeah. You have that? Yes. Okay, to give you some context.

Sylvia Lim  1:02:25  
Page is that sorry,

Edwin Tong  1:02:27  
seven year for submission with you seven December, the page number appears at the bottom. And I'm going to refer to page eight. But I want to tell you about this. Okay, what these documents are about give you some orientation, because I think this is the first time you're seeing in the course of testimony, various of the witnesses would offer additional documents, in this case, WhatsApp messages. So this came from Miss Kahn. And she disclosed this to us. And if you go to the top of page eight you will see that when her messages starts with you at 1:57pm. You see that? It's from you. It says Ray, where are you was looking for you? She didn't replies a minute later. Hey, Sylvia, I went to the women's room for a while. Yes, that's right. I still outside the chamber. And then you sit in library want to meet at ellos? Room? Yes. There'll be great. I'll see you there. That's right. Is it? Okay? Yes. Now, that's the exchange you referred to. Right. Yeah. So you would have met her shortly after this exchange? Yeah, I think probably half

Sylvia Lim  1:03:29  
an hour or an hour after the last message.

Edwin Tong  1:03:33  
Okay. Would Mr. Singh have been aware of this meeting?

Sylvia Lim  1:03:37  
I don't think so. So because at that time, if I'm not wrong, the fika debate was on. So he was quite involved in that. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:03:45  
Your meeting in his room? Which I Yes, take since you didn't ask him first. You can walk in at any time.

Sylvia Lim  1:03:52  
And you just sometimes locked but I think instead on sitting days is generally unlocked. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:03:56  
Okay. So, when you met Miss Kahn there around this time, or shortly after this message? Can you describe the meeting?

Sylvia Lim  1:04:06  
Yeah, okay. So I had two purposes actually, of wanting to meet her. The first was also, of course, to see emotionally how she was after the exchange with Minister which I think most people would find stressful in any event. So that was the first way. I'm just saying most people. So just to square that circle with her, and at the same time also certain things which the minister had said in his speech also made me consider some things which I think are important. Alright. So for example, he mentioned in his speech that the police will be contacting Miss Miss Kahn to find out more about the the statement that she had made, and at that point in time, what struck me was that these are this is me thinking myself is that? Well, MPs who make speeches in Parliament, they have parliamentary privileges. And at the same time, if there's any issue with any speech that's made in Parliament, Parliament is the proper body to handle it. So I was wanting to share those views with her. So I told her that look, this is my view that whatever is said by an MP in Parliament, if there's any issue with it, Parliament is the proper place to handle it. I didn't think that the police, this was just me quickly thinking I didn't think that in this case, although of course, the police may want to know more about the nature of the complaint and things like that. But I didn't think that the police would be exercising powers as such, because they were not really investigating a criminal offense at that time. So I told her that please get your own legal advice on this. This is just my preliminary view that whatever issues may arise from what an MP says in Parliament, Parliament is the proper authority to handle it. And please go and get your legal advice on this.

Edwin Tong  1:06:12  
Okay. So to unpack it a little there are two broad reasons why What did you see her? The second one that you just articulated is as a follow through and to prepare for the eventual request of the police for an interview?

Sylvia Lim  1:06:27  
Yes, yes. And also for her to be clear of the legal position as well. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:06:32  
At that stage. Did you already tell her to consult with lawyers? I think I heard you say so.

Sylvia Lim  1:06:38  
But I just suggested to her to get legal advice.

Edwin Tong  1:06:41  
Okay. Now, your first reason to see her was also to ascertain our emotional circumstance at that point in time, what was your assessment?

Sylvia Lim  1:06:50  
She seemed highly stressed. Not not in a good place.

Edwin Tong  1:06:58  
Did you ask her? Why did you repeat the untruths? I didn't ask her that. Did you ask her? I mean, again, I'm asking you this question. And let me give you the premise. Okay. You had just the last time you spoke to her was on the eighth of August on this issue. And on your evidence, the last time you spoke to anyone on this issue was actually the eighth of August two, right?

Eighth of August, yes. Yes. Because I I was quite careful in finding out what happened throughout August, and then September. And then you told me on the third of October, you weren't aware at that time. Right. So now we're on the fourth of October afternoon. So when you're seeing her, this would be the first occasion after the eighth of August, that you'll be talking to anyone about this issue. Right? Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:07:55  
Talking to someone, yes. Anyone? Actually, I think so. Yeah, yes.

Edwin Tong  1:07:59  
So in your mind, this was something that Mr. Singh was managing. Yes. Right. And so from that perspective, did you ask her what do you discuss with Mr. Singh? How did you end up repeating the lie again? Few times?

Sylvia Lim  1:08:18  
I didn't talk to her about that, you know,

Edwin Tong  1:08:21  
no, we're not concerned about that.

Sylvia Lim  1:08:26  
Of course, there will be concerned but at the same time, I mean, the fact is that I didn't, you know, shout at her to ask her why she lied again, or, or what Mr. Singh had told her because never in my mind, would I expect that Mr. Singh will tell you to double down on the line. So that was not a consideration. So fair

Edwin Tong  1:08:47  
enough. Fair enough. But even taking that on board, not assuming that assuming that Mr. Singh would not ask you to double down on the lie. Even taking that on board, you would be concerned to know how she has now come to in fact, double down on the lie, actually, right.

Sylvia Lim  1:09:09  
I suppose I will. Yes, you

Edwin Tong  1:09:10  
would have. But you didn't ask anything about that.

Sylvia Lim  1:09:12  
I didn't ask her about it at that point. No.

Edwin Tong  1:09:13  
Okay. Did you ask her whether a family was really aware of the sexual assault issue?

Sylvia Lim  1:09:20  
I did not ask her about that at that time. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:09:23  
Again, I raised that because you said it was unnecessary. Step four is to disclose. Yes. And you would have been aware that the very next day was another parliamentary setting. So did you entertain the prospect that given that she has now just repeated the lie which of course has made the circumstance worse? Would it have been an option for her to go to Parliament on the next day? To clarify the lie?

Sylvia Lim  1:09:47  
I think theoretically, yes, it's an option, but practically, I don't think is an option. Why? Because such a such a matter where she has to come to Explain how she came to tell the truth. And in her mind, she has to talk about her past experience. And also the fact that she repeated it on the fourth, it would require careful structuring, I would say a drafting and to make sure that she's able to be very emotionally stable and comfortable with her statement of clarification. So, if I can just talk about a reason why this, this would make sense. On the third of August, you remember that that was the day when the speech was first made? Yes. And after the speech, I know that Pritam was basically chasing her to give details of the incident and so on. And, and based on certain information, which she gave to him, which turned out to be and further untrue, I do not know whether he actually went through those details, that she doubled down on the, and said that it was a police station, and so on and so forth. Then, there was a clarification that she made that evening on the third of August. And I believe that Pritam did help her with that clarification. And it turned out to be actually a clarification, which further toward the licensee. So I would say that haste in this circumstance, even on the fourth of October, is not wise. And we needed to do it calmly. And in that sense, we do the deliberation.

Edwin Tong  1:11:50  
Okay. But I mean, I can understand what you say about the third of August, because the clarification that Mr. Singh drafted, which Miss Kahn then delivered subsequently in a later part of the same proceeding, I can understand that does on the same day. But when you say haste should not be the principal consideration. I mean, right now, we are about more than two months since the lie was spoken in Parliament. Would you not agree that in this context, and plus the added fact that the lie has just been repeated double down, as you say, actually, haste would be important to come and explain that what was spoken in Parliament was a lie. There was no such incident, the police can stop looking. And sexual assault victims need not be concerned that this might be an issue that could be true, and might affect the way in which they look at whether they are prepared to come forward to see the police in that context? Well,

Sylvia Lim  1:12:50  
I mean, Mr. Tong, but the fact of the matter is that we we have this thing happening on the fourth of October, and the setting continued on the fifth. Yes, yeah. And based on the normal timetable, there will still be a further sitting in November. That's what we understand. So it's a question of judgment. Alright. I mean, if you want to rush through a clarification on Fifth October, it might be possible. But we will need time to go in as a team from her exactly what she wants to say and whether it can withstand scrutiny. So it's a judgement.

Edwin Tong  1:13:25  
I understand I understand all of what you said, but I'm adding to it the complexion of it being a light that was now repeated, which I think as, as a senior politician, you would appreciate actually makes the situation worse.

Sylvia Lim  1:13:39  
No, of course. I mean, as I said earlier, what happened on fourth October, of course, made the situation worse. Yes.

Edwin Tong  1:13:45  
Yes. So in that context, number one and number two, in the context that there is now out there, continue to perpetrate a lie, which adversely affects not just the integrity of parliamentary proceedings, but also the police and perhaps sexual assault victims as well.

Sylvia Lim  1:14:02  
Well, Mr. Tonko, Chairman, I should say, as I said earlier, we appreciate the seriousness of the situation. And of course, the events that took place in Parliament on the fourth of October Hatton had worsened the situation and in my mind, it was urgent for us to take the necessary steps to correct the record, but I did not think that fifth October was an option.

Edwin Tong  1:14:29  
Okay. So on the fourth of October, up till, as far as I can recollect, based on what Mr. Faisal and Mr. Singh had said earlier, there were no attempts to inform the Workers Party cc of this matter until the 29th of October. Would I be right in those dates?

Sylvia Lim  1:14:59  
You Yes, we had a meeting on the 29th of October because we call the CC to prepare them for the statement that she was going to make on the first of November. Okay. So it was the Friday before the November sitting,

Edwin Tong  1:15:13  
understand. And that would be the first time the CC became aware that there was a lie in Parliament and that Miss Khan will come to Parliament to clarify the lie, correct? Yes, I believe so. Now, Mr. Singh, gave evidence that later that evening, towards the end of the sitting, and I think you remember that sitting because he went on till almost midnight, past midnight, the fourth of October, at around 11:15pm. He gave evidence that there was a meeting which involve yourself, Miss Kahn, again in Ella's office with Mr. Singh as well. Do you remember that?

Sylvia Lim  1:15:50  
I remember that? Yes.

Edwin Tong  1:15:51  
Can you give us an account of that meeting?

Sylvia Lim  1:15:56  
I don't think the meeting lasted very long From what I recall, because it was I think, at the end of the fika, the difficult debate had ended. And it was about 11 Something in the evening. And meanwhile, there was an agenda motion on mental health going on. So So he went to the ellos. Office. And then all I remember at that time, was that it's very likely that Pritam probably asked her what what she's going to do about this matter. And what I recall, was her saying something to the effect that there is another path, honesty. That's what I recall the saying, and then the meeting ended off by saying, Okay, we'll talk about this. And then it was beat. That was basically all I can remember about that that meeting.

Edwin Tong  1:16:44  
Okay. Just to dial back a little bit. Was she present already with Mr. Singh when you arrived there? Or was she the last to arrive?

Sylvia Lim  1:16:55  
I can't remember that. You can't remember? No.

Edwin Tong  1:16:57  
I asked that. Because I wanted to know whether there was an opportunity for yourself and Mr. Singh to speak without Miss Kahn being present. Was there? I don't think so. No. So you didn't discuss that separately with him? No. Throughout the rest of the day, and I know that the fika debate was going on. And Mr. Singh did say that he was his mind was focused on that. But was there any occasion between the time that Miss Kahn spoke the lie again in Parliament on the fourth of October? And when you met with Mr. Singh, at 11:15pm? Did you exchange any messages? Did you speak to him via text or email in any way to ask him what had happened? And to talk about what why Miss Carr had repeated the lie?

Sylvia Lim  1:17:39  
I don't think there were any exchanges like that. Or during that day itself?

Edwin Tong  1:17:43  
No, not at all. Yeah, I don't think so. Again, let me verbalize why I asked you this, because in your mind, you felt that he was the best person to deal with the issue and handle the matter moving forward, which to you must lead to naturally and honest clarification in Parliament's right. But you had just witnessed a double down of the lie. And in your mind putting the two together. This has happened. It's very worse. But I left it to Section Mr. Singh to deal with the problem. Would you would not one of your first instincts be to ask him? What happened? How did we end up in this situation?

Sylvia Lim  1:18:21  
Well, on that day itself, on the fourth of October, I did not ask him further about this matter, because he was very heavily involved in the thicker debate at that time, which was a very heated and acrimonious debate. And then we were, you know, tabling amendments and so on. So there were a lot of things going on at that time. So, I mean, like I said, I didn't think myself that fifth October would be an option to make a clarification. So we can always talk later.

Edwin Tong  1:18:48  
Okay. So just to be clear, apart from this short meeting at 11:15pm, in the ellos. Office, you did not have any other discussion with Mr. Singh. Over the by this time, the repeat of the lie Correct. On the fourth itself on the fourth? Yeah, no, no. Did you have a discussion with anyone else? Mr. Faisal, perhaps?

Sylvia Lim  1:19:08  
Not on that day? I don't think so. Okay, so

Edwin Tong  1:19:10  
now on the fourth meeting, which is fourth of October 11 15 PM, okay. You said Miss Kahn came and said, and these are the words that Mr. Singh used to describe what Mrs. Concert she says. He said, she said, Perhaps there's another way that is to tell the truth. You've heard this statement, as Phil said, by Miss Carr.

Sylvia Lim  1:19:35  
What's that effect? Normally what I recall was, you know, like what I mentioned earlier, that there is another path on this to

Edwin Tong  1:19:42  
what was your response to this statement, assuming.

Sylvia Lim  1:19:48  
I wasn't quite sure what to make of it, because you know, she had just chosen another path earlier in the day, you see. So I was just listening to her uttering that statement, and I really do know what to make of it really?

Edwin Tong  1:20:03  
In your mind, which you you explained very clearly earlier. I mean, there's only really one outcome, which is to clarify the lie. Right. That's the question of when. But now, that was not done on earlier that day. Would you not have said, What do you mean, there's another path? There's only one path, which is the comment, tell the truth.

Sylvia Lim  1:20:23  
I didn't say anything, because Pritam I think responded, you know, and what I recall him saying was something to the effect that, haven't you chosen your path by what you said today? Something like that?

Edwin Tong  1:20:37  
Okay, and did miss can reply to that?

Sylvia Lim  1:20:40  
I don't think she didn't I don't recall any reply. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:20:43  
So, besides this exchange on those words that she used, what else happened at this meeting?

Sylvia Lim  1:20:52  
I don't recall that the meeting lasted longer, as I said, because it was quite late in the evening. So we sort of ended off by knowing that we would have to meet again, in order to take the thing forward. And that was about it. Okay, it wasn't very long. I don't think

Edwin Tong  1:21:07  
Mr. Singh told us that he did not say to her at this meeting, that she had to tell the truth, or words to that effect. Will this also be your recollection that this was not said?

Sylvia Lim  1:21:20  
He probably said something to the effect that we'll have to we'll discuss this further in after she said that there's another path and then say, we'll discuss this further. And then I think that was it. There

Edwin Tong  1:21:31  
was nothing else I said, I can't recall. Okay. Did either of you ask her if by that time her family members were aware of the sexual assault

Sylvia Lim  1:21:40  
experience? Not at that meeting? No.

Edwin Tong  1:21:43  
Would it not have been something that you would want to find out? Against? Yes. Because the context was you in your mind, it was a necessary step? Yes. Right. So why Why not ask her directly? Since she's before? You know?

Sylvia Lim  1:21:59  
I didn't think of it at the time.

Edwin Tong  1:22:02  
Because if this step had not been crossed, ie a fairly was not aware, then you can't come to Parliament to clarify. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:22:11  
Like I mentioned, I mean, the under I mean, at the fourth of October meeting in late in the evening. It was not a very long meeting. Okay. And near midnight. And, you know, basically, it was, I think, called to tell her that the metal had to be taken forward. And then that was the main purpose, I think of the meeting, and it didn't last very long as well. But what does taken forward mean? Meaning, meaning that we would have to go to a parliamentary clarification.

Edwin Tong  1:22:50  
But those are not the words used with Miss Kahn?

Sylvia Lim  1:22:54  
No, not at that meeting. Yes, yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:22:57  
So on at the meeting, How would she know that ticket for means to clarify the truth in Parliament? Because Mr. Singh didn't say that. Mr. Singh didn't tell her the color truth in Parliament. And your last few words, were also not articulated in Ellis in those terms to miss Kahn. And the only impression she's left with at that stage is we'll have to speak further. And that was the end of the meeting.

Sylvia Lim  1:23:22  
Well, earlier, as I, as you know, I met Miss Kahn in the afternoon, right. So as I said earlier, during that conversation, which I had with her, I told her that my initial view is that any issue with a speech made by an MP in Parliament should be clarified in Parliament, because that's the proper organ of state to do it in. So I had said that to her, you know?

Edwin Tong  1:23:55  
Yes, but which, which sitting? You see, as I tried to, hopefully, clearly articulate earlier, there was still the option of another sitting next day. Right. And I know, you explained why you felt it was too hasty. But was that something that was discussed? And if not, then why not? Because it could have been raised with Miss Kahn to say, Look, your family's aware, if they're aware, let's start working on the statement, because the longer this remains on the record, which I think you will appreciate the worst it will be.

Sylvia Lim  1:24:26  
No, of course, I mean, we want we wanted the letter to be clarified sooner rather than later, especially after the fourth of October exchange where the situation did get worse. You know, but as I mentioned to you at the meeting on the fourth of October, late at midnight, I mean, that was in my mind, every fifth October was not an option for the reasons that I mentioned. But what I understood was that we would be moving quickly now to assist and guide her towards doing what was necessary to correct the record in Parliament.

Edwin Tong  1:25:07  
Okay, Miss can give evidence that this meeting also discussed the possibility that there might be a committee of privileges hearing as a result of what had happened. Do you recall that?

Sylvia Lim  1:25:21  
I can distinctly recall it may have happened, but I can't distinctly recall.

Edwin Tong  1:25:26  
So, after this short meeting, and you left, was there another occasion either on the fourth itself, I know it's really very late. At that time on the fifth at the next day in Parliament, where you had occasion to discuss with Mr. Singh, what then would the next steps be?

Sylvia Lim  1:25:49  
I cannot remember whether I discussed it with him or not. On the fifth, I can't remember that.

Edwin Tong  1:25:53  
No. Do you? Would you have exchanged messages with him? Text messages, emails?

Sylvia Lim  1:25:59  
I don't saw. So I can't remember whether we discussed on the fifth or not.

Edwin Tong  1:26:04  
Okay. Again, in context. And to explain why I'm asking this question. You had just seen what happened on the fourth of October. You had spoken with Miss Kahn twice. You had in prior to that thought Mr. Singh, in fact, assumed Mr. Singh would be doing it dealing with the problem. But now the problem has been exacerbated. Why is it that on the fifth, there is no discussion with Mr. Singh on what the next steps ought to be?

Sylvia Lim  1:26:30  
I think we left off on the fourth on the understanding that we will be meeting again very soon. So we will we will take those steps, you know, so on the fifth, I can't remember whether we discussed anything or not. I really can't. Because the plan was to sitting I think in I think I spoke on one of the bills, you know, so you sense. I mean, there were other things going on here.

Edwin Tong  1:26:53  
Okay. Could you check the messages that you have and see whether in this period on the fourth, or the fifth? You have disgusted with Mr. Singh, or indeed anyone else as to what next steps to take

Sylvia Lim  1:27:05  
for the office? Yes.

Edwin Tong  1:27:06  
I asked you to start from fourth, because you had told me earlier that there's nothing prior to that, that you discuss with anyone else? I don't know. Right. So the fifth, did you speak to Miss Kahn at all again, on this issue? I couldn't recall that. Because we were both in Parliament again.

Sylvia Lim  1:27:25  
Yeah, but I can't recall when I spoke to her now I can recall. Okay. If

Edwin Tong  1:27:29  
you. If you did speak with her, you would probably recall. Am I right? Because

Sylvia Lim  1:27:35  
I suppose so. But you know, I'm not 100%? Sure. But I do recall speaking to her on the fourth.

Edwin Tong  1:27:41  
Okay. No, but I'm afraid now in the aftermath of this. I mean, the, again, the context is, both yourself. And Mr. Singh did say that Miss Kahn was distraught, she was affected by what had happened, which I think I can understand. But on the fifth, the next day, perhaps after, you know, a night, and things are karma would not have been an occasion to even if we've you felt that it was too hasty to to come clean on the fifth of October, would you not have wanted to discuss with this time what the next steps ought to be?

Sylvia Lim  1:28:18  
As I said, I mean, the understanding that I had was that we will be meeting very soon to talk about this matter. So speaking on the fifth to me was I mean, it didn't matter one way or the other, because it will be happening soon.

Edwin Tong  1:28:32  
Did you on the fifth, have any sense as to when you'll be meeting? Was there a plan ready?

Sylvia Lim  1:28:39  
I think let me try and remember now. A few days later, we met.

Edwin Tong  1:28:45  
Okay, but as of the fifth, did you have her Have you already made plans to meet? There was no date six I think, okay. As of the fifth. Can you tell me if there were any other steps taken as of the fifth, which would be consistent with preparing for Ms. Khan to come to Parliament to clarify the line?

Sylvia Lim  1:29:10  
I can't recall any steps because parliament was sitting so we were at the sitting, you know, doing our

Edwin Tong  1:29:18  
Okay. On the seventh of October, Miss Kahn received an email from the police requesting for an interview and she forwarded it to you. Yes, correct. She also sent I think, subsequently, the seventh also sent you a note from her lawyers, which set out I think advice to her. Do you recall that? I recall reading that? Yes. Yes. And in the email, which she sent to both yourself, as well as Mr. In fact, to Mr. Singh, and to Mr. Faisal, as well. She asked you, What should she do? or words to that effect?

Sylvia Lim  1:29:55  
Do you recall it? something to the effect? Yes.

Edwin Tong  1:29:57  
Yes. How did you advise her

Sylvia Lim  1:30:01  
So we the email came, as you mentioned on the seventh of October, and we arranged for meeting with Miss Kahn on the 12th, the following Tuesday, so we were. So maybe I'll talk about the police reply first before we talk about the actual other things. Yeah. So so at the trough of October meeting, she, okay, maybe tell him logically, I just described the meeting as it went. So on the 12th of October, this meeting took place in Putnams. House again. And the meeting started off by Pritam Singh. So have you decided what you're going to do about this?

Edwin Tong  1:30:49  
Sorry, to start in trouble. Can you give me a time roughly? What time was this on a coffee? Morning, afternoon, evening?

Sylvia Lim  1:31:01  
I can't recall the time. I can't recall the time, but it was in the evening. So sometime in the morning or afternoon, something like that? Yeah. Okay. Yes. Sorry. He's gone. Okay. So he started off the meeting return by asking her well, so what do you think, what are you going to do about this? And then she said, I still don't think I want to tell the truth. Okay. So, at that point, I got angry, and I think Pritam was also angry. And we

told her that this correction has to be made, right. And that every tried to persuade her by saying that look, if you do not make the correction, this is going to weigh on you, you know, for the rest of your life, and it will be too much of a burden, you know, for for anyone to bear, you need to correct this, you know, so so that, you know, everyone is clear. And then you know, we can move on from there. Okay. So okay, so then coming back to the police thing, so, so around at the end of this meeting, I can't remember what it was she who raised it, or I who raised this, this issue of the police request. And then this was after she agreed with us that she would be making a clarification in Parliament at the next setting. So I told her that, that as far as the police request is concerned, I think it is okay for you to leave it because you're going to clarify the metal in Parliament. And in your clarification, you know, you're going to be reflecting the anecdote anyway. So let's just do this in Parliament and leave the police reply. I think you can leave the police reply.

Edwin Tong  1:32:57  
Okay. So when you first met with her, together with Mr. Singh, on 12, October, she had expressed reluctance to speak the truth in Parliament and clarify this right. This would have been completely against what you would have thought would have happened, meaning when you walked away on the eighth of August, and again, while you left the matter to Mr. Singh to deal with, in your mind, it must have been there's only one conclusion which is she will come and clarify. So hearing from her, I mean, first of all, on the fourth, where she did not, not just did not clarify the lie, but she doubled down on it several times. On the fourth, and now on the 12th, almost a week later, or more than a week later, she's still telling you that she is not prepared to tell the truth. And clarify. You must have taken this to be a very direct affront to what you understood to be the correct path. The right thing to do,

Sylvia Lim  1:34:10  
isn't it? Yeah, it was not an option for her to continue to lie.

Edwin Tong  1:34:14  
And did you turn to Mr. Singh and say, What did y'all discuss and agree?

Sylvia Lim  1:34:22  
It didn't strike me that this would have been agreed between her and him to double down the lie. I mean, that would not so much. Across my, my mind.

Edwin Tong  1:34:31  
I understand, but not so much double on the line, but rather, you see again, you know, understanding your evidence, your your touch points were limited eighth of August, there was one whole of August whole of September, nothing else. Third of October. You weren't aware at that point in time. You only knew on the fourth when you met with Mr. Singh and Miss Kahn at the meetings. Right. And then you said fifth, nothing and thereafter you're aware of the police report on the seventh. But please, yes, I'm sorry, please request on the seven And the next time you had to deal with this, again is on the 12th of October. So that's your touch points to this matter. And your state of mind would have been this is something Mr. Singh is handling. And it would be handled, such that they really only can be one outcome, which is coming down the truth. But here in front of you is an episode playing out where Miss Kahn had not told the truth on fourth of October, and is now coming to you again, with Mr. Singh president and saying, I'm not going to come and clarify. So in this context, would you not have wanted to know what had been discussed? What had been agreed what had gone on between Mr. Singh and Miss Kahn, which give rise to the situation now,

Sylvia Lim  1:35:43  
you see never crossed my mind. And I cannot fathom this possibility that Pridham would have given her the option to choose between telling the truth or continuing the lie that never crossed my mind. And I do not believe it to be true. So when she comes and says, I don't think I want to tell the truth, I think it's just her is nothing to do with Mr. Singh at all.

Edwin Tong  1:36:09  
Okay, did you ask her if, at that time, she had not yet told her family about it.

Sylvia Lim  1:36:18  
I think it emerged during the meeting. I don't recall, the jeweler who asked it, whether me or Peter, I can recall that distinctly. But but we we, I think, concludes concluded somehow that she had not done that.

Edwin Tong  1:36:37  
Concluded somehow was that because you asked her? I can't

Sylvia Lim  1:36:41  
see I can't remember very clearly who asked this question. But it seemed like she hadn't closed the loop with her family yet. Okay, exactly the words used or that I'm sorry, I really can't recall

Edwin Tong  1:36:50  
that. And that's fine. But again, going back to the context, you had said this was a necessary step. So again, although although the circumstances I appreciate are quite different now in October, October 12, and the day on Eighth of August, quite different circumstance, which I appreciate. But nonetheless, if your principal concern was her well being and that this matter should not come to public domain without a family, knowing one of the key considerations still on a 12. October would be whether a family was aware, Would you not agree?

Sylvia Lim  1:37:24  
Well, that loop would definitely have to be closed. But I have to say that, of course, as time wore on, and now it was already 12 of October. I was a bit impatient.

Edwin Tong  1:37:36  
I mean, that that was the thrust of what I was saying earlier, when I asked you why you felt was hasty on a fifth of October because now the dynamics have changed circumstances have changed,

Sylvia Lim  1:37:47  
right. So it is a judgment as to when is the best and earliest possible time to do it? And you know, it's a judgment as to which day is appropriate fifth October, or not fifth October, the next thing?

Edwin Tong  1:38:03  
Okay, so as of 12, October, had you worked out whether a parents were away?

Sylvia Lim  1:38:11  
I concluded probably that she had set on the matter. I think

Edwin Tong  1:38:15  
so the family was not yet aware. That was my conclusion here. Okay. So as of 12, October, despite the fact that the family being told was a necessary step. Y'all had insisted that she now has to complete and she has got no choice but to do it at the next available setting. Would I be right? Yes. So at least to that extent, there's a change in the circumstances on which she would now have to complete

Sylvia Lim  1:38:42  
in the sense that in the sense that it was made clear to her that our view was that she needed to make a clarification at the next available setting, which was scheduled for first November. And to that extent, whatever needed to be done prior to that had to be done prior to that.

Edwin Tong  1:39:01  
Okay, so in other words, by this time, unlike in August, no ifs, ands, or buts, it's just the next thing you come clean. And by that time,

Sylvia Lim  1:39:11  
we convinced her we convinced her of it. And after some discussion, she agreed with us that that was the best thing to do. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:39:19  
So the upshot of that meeting on October the 12th. Was that she will come to you in Parliament explain her lie. The next thing, right.

Sylvia Lim  1:39:27  
Oh, Alicia would set the record straight in Parliament. Yes. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:39:30  
And as far as you are aware, and I think you will confirm this. That's the first time you were aware that she would come and make a statement to clarify the lie in Parliament. Right.

Sylvia Lim  1:39:39  
It is the first I would say Express confirmation that this would happen that she would be making that statement in Parliament to correct the record. Yes. Express commitment. Yes.

Edwin Tong  1:39:51  
You at least to you, right. Yes. Okay. Because your previous experiences or touch points with this matter, as I said, Earlier in my timeline, we're just on Eighth of August and probably fleetingly on the fourth of October. Correct. And, and neither of those occasions, was there a confirmation by her that she would come to Parliament to clarify the

Sylvia Lim  1:40:16  
line the confirmation was, was obtained on the 12th of October Yes. And not prior to that. No, not expressing okay.

Edwin Tong  1:40:24  
And the other difference on October October is that this time, it was, as I understand your evidence articulated clearly to her that she has to go to Parliament to tell the truth, correct? Yes, we articulated that. That's the difference also between what happened on the eighth of August, and again, on the fourth of October, where the words for her were the phrase for her to go to Parliament to tell the truth was not spoken to her. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:40:52  
On the eighth of August, as we mentioned earlier, we did not touch on this, the steps to be taken in Parliament to rectify the record because of the immediacy of the other issues, or emotional state, the fact that the family didn't know and so on. So it was not articulated at that time. On the fourth of October, as I mentioned earlier, I had a brief conversation with her in the afternoon, to tell her that, in my view, at least initially, my initial view is that any issues with what an MP says in Parliament should be resolved by Parliament settled in Parliament. So that general statement I made to her, but on the top of October, we call her commitment to make the statement,

Edwin Tong  1:41:37  
the statement meaning to tell the truth, you express that to Korea to correct the record. Yes. Okay. And the difference being that on the fourth of October, your words, and I appreciate what you've just said, did not include an exhortation to her to tell the truth in Parliament. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:41:55  
But I think the general direction I did articulate it. So I said to her that any issues with what an MP says in Parliament should be clarified in Parliament, Parliament handles his own affairs. And, and in the context, I asked her to get legal advice as well. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:42:13  
So the turn of phrase that I suggested to you was not used, but in your mind, it was clear enough to her, that that's what you meant? Is that what you're saying?

Sylvia Lim  1:42:22  
I'm saying I'm saying that what I meant on the fourth of October in the conversation with her was to steer her to say, look, this matters to be clarified in Parliament. So I put it in more general terms, but that was what I meant. Okay. All right.

Edwin Tong  1:42:39  
From the top of October onwards, we see quite a number of steps being taken to prepare for Ms. Khan to make a statement in Parliament. And you have been privy to some of these steps, and I'll just like to walk you through them. Okay. Now, on the 12th of October itself, I presume, shortly after or sometime after the meeting that you've just described, there was a meeting that Mr. Singh had with Mr. Nothern. And Miss Lowe. First of all, were you present at a meeting? I wasn't present at the meeting. Were you aware that there was such a meeting?

Sylvia Lim  1:43:18  
I think I was told by Britain about the meeting, but when I can remember. Okay,

Edwin Tong  1:43:23  
so sometime after the meeting took place? Oh, yes. Okay. Were you aware why he had a meeting with them?

Sylvia Lim  1:43:31  
The impression I got was that they asked to see him.

Edwin Tong  1:43:35  
And eventually, since he was reporting to you after the meeting to place the tell you what it was about?

Sylvia Lim  1:43:41  
I think he did. But I can't recall distinctly what he said.

Edwin Tong  1:43:47  
Okay, can you give us a gist of what he said the meeting was about?

Sylvia Lim  1:43:53  
I'm trying to recall whether I even because I know that he did tell me that being in yudishe asked to see him? Well, because they are the closest assistance in that sense to Mishcon. So I would assume that it's in relation to what she was going to say in Parliament. On the first of November, I believe so but but the details I can't remember.

Edwin Tong  1:44:18  
Okay, Miss for what I I'll just summarize From what we heard from Miss Lowe and Mr. Nothern. They were they made the request to see the meeting. And the purpose of the meeting was because they had learned, I assume, subsequent to the meeting that you had with Miss Kahn that she was now going to make a clarificatory statement or statement to tell the truth or clarify the lie. And they wanted to meet with Mr. Singh to work out the preparatory steps towards that and in their minds, they were concerned with making sure that, for example, Miss Khan's social media handles will be well taken care of, that should be queried by constituents in Campbellsville that they will also have Something to deal with. And also to talk through the process of what might happen as a result of such a statement being made, which they appreciate it would be big news in Parliament. Would that be something that would accord with your recollection of what happened at the meeting? Based on what Mr. Singh told you?

Sylvia Lim  1:45:18  
Well, I wasn't at the meeting, you know, but based on the timeline, I would say that what you've described to me would not be surprising that they will be discussing these things. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:45:29  
Now, they're often I mean, from 12, October onwards. Okay. So just to give you a sense of them, the timeline I have in mind 12, October, was this meeting where you persuaded Muskaan to complain? And then you mentioned earlier that there was a 29th of October meeting with the CEC. Right. Okay. So within this window within this window, but would you agree that there were several drafts of the statement that were canvassed looked at and edited? And you were involved in that correct?

Sylvia Lim  1:46:01  
I was present at some of these meetings, if not all, I can't remember how many there were? Yes, there were drafts, different versions exchange, during this period of time from the after the 12. And before the 29. Okay,

Edwin Tong  1:46:17  
from what I can piece together from the various WhatsApp messages that went on, and this is, of course, somewhat secondhand information. There were something like five or six drafts. And then we'll also about five or six meetings, which took place either at the universe town council office, or at Mr. Singh's home, or at Party headquarters. Would that accord broadly with your own recollection?

Sylvia Lim  1:46:46  
I do not recall going to Eunos town council office for any meeting, but I attended a few at riddims. House, and there was one at the Workers Party headquarters. Yes.

Edwin Tong  1:46:57  
Okay. So would it be fair to say that the draft was very carefully looked at by yourself, Mr. Singh, Miss Kahn? And I think in some cases of some of the drugs, also, Mr. Nothern. And Miss Lowe? Yes, they

Sylvia Lim  1:47:11  
will always I mean, you know, her confidence, you know, and I think they were quite how shall I say, quite into the contents of the statement that Miss Kahn would be giving, so they had the views and so on. But Indian, I think it was dropped the drops all drafted by her. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:47:31  
So my question was a bit broader than that. Covers yourself and Mr. Singh. So let's focus on two of you in particular, okay. That the various turn of the drafts would include comments that you make and edit that you suggest correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:47:45  
We tried to be judicious about that, because it's going to be hers, Legion. It's going to be something that's very highly personal that she's she wanted to share in the public domain. So we didn't really want to curtail in that sense, the way she wanted to tell the story, of course. So I really did give comments. Yes, yes, content

Edwin Tong  1:48:15  
and truth and falsity of the statements, she has to take ownership of it. But I suppose Mr. Singh, and yourself would also be looking out at the draft from the perspective of the Workers Party as a party, the impact that this will have, because as we said earlier, as I said earlier, this is a high signature move, there will be and you expected that to be some significant adverse publicity. So you would be an clean to ensure that at least to those extents, you give your input Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:48:47  
I would say that what was in my mind at the time looking at drafts was that it was my feeling that one or two of the drafts were placing too much emphasis on the past experience that she had. And the apology and the retraction for the untruth in in one or two of the drafts was not very clear. So that was my focus that look, you want to make a clarification in Parliament to apologize and retract an untruth. You have to say it clearly. So that was that was it and I didn't think that an overemphasis on the past sexual trauma and so on would be helpful in that sense because it might be read the wrong way.

Edwin Tong  1:49:37  
Okay. So, would it be fair to say that by the time you arrange for a cc meeting on the 29th of October, you you would have been satisfied with the way that draft looked like?

Sylvia Lim  1:49:51  
I can't see for sure, you know, because the jobs are still being you know, looked at and amended and, you know, Yudish and being also looking into it I can't be very sure about that. But but she came with the draft and no, we all looked at the draft at the meeting.

Edwin Tong  1:50:07  
Okay. And so if there were any final views that you had comments, you would have given it to her at that meeting. Yes, right. Now, early on, we agreed that this was the first time the CC was aware of this incident and aware of the lie in Parliament, and also aware of the fact that she will then be in a few days time going to Parliament to clarify Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:50:33  
On the 29th of October, that's when the CC was informed that she'll be making this clarification on the first Yes. Okay.

Edwin Tong  1:50:41  
Now, can you describe the CCS reaction to being told about this? First of all, was the entire CC present at this meeting?

Sylvia Lim  1:50:52  
I think some people could not make it for the meeting.

Edwin Tong  1:50:55  
Okay, do you remember who?

Sylvia Lim  1:51:01  
I think the rule was not there. Louise try thing also could not make it and see.

One or two others.

Edwin Tong  1:51:20  
Okay. So can you give us a broad description, the gist of the meeting with the CC.

Sylvia Lim  1:51:27  
Okay, so Reisa address the CC and told them that she was going to that she just going to make a statement of clarification in Parliament on the first of November. And she explained briefly that she felt very strongly about this issue of victims of sexual assault. And she was a victim herself prior to that, you know, and then she was telling them that she's just trying to work on herself. You know, and then I think that the draft was circulated, or at least read out, and with a few copies circulated as well.

Edwin Tong  1:52:12  
Okay, with the comments made by the CDC to this draft.

Sylvia Lim  1:52:17  
There was somebody I can't really distinctly recall, there was one query about whether it was necessary to bring up her past. Yes, so that was what that was discussed. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:52:28  
Anyone else suggest a CC to you. Anyone else addressed the CC?

Sylvia Lim  1:52:35  
I think bitten did.

Edwin Tong  1:52:37  
What he said to the CZ,

Sylvia Lim  1:52:39  
I think he gave the background by the statement is coming to be made. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:52:44  
Okay. And can you give us the gist of that background?

Sylvia Lim  1:52:49  
It was it was just an explanation that, you know, on the third of August. Okay, I'm actually not very sure whether she gave the background or him I can't remember. But anyway, the CeCe needed context. So it was explained to them that there was a speech made in Parliament on the third of August, by her that it contains something that is not true. And that she would be making a statement to correct it, you know, and she was she explained the circumstances of that. Okay. I mean, this is just a broad picture thing, because I can't recall the stimuli, who said what, you know,

Edwin Tong  1:53:28  
okay. The purpose of this meeting, Muslim, on the 29th of October will be to apprise, the CEC ahead of time that this statement will be made in Parliament, by a Workers Party. MP. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:53:40  
We wanted the CC to know, first before it became public. Yes,

Edwin Tong  1:53:45  
in fact, I mean, that's, I would say good order, but only correct for the CC, which is the highest body in your in your, in your political party to be aware of it before it becomes public. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:53:57  
That was That was why we call the meeting right.

Edwin Tong  1:54:00  
Now, at this meeting, was the CEC aware that Miss Kahn had already informed you Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal, about the lie on the eighth of August?

Sylvia Lim  1:54:13  
I think that topic was not specifically discussed at the meeting on the on the 29th of October.

Edwin Tong  1:54:18  
Yes. But my question is a different one. Was the CEC aware at this meeting, or any time prior to that, that Miss Kahn had already informed you Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal, about the lie on the eighth of August,

Sylvia Lim  1:54:31  
the date of in of August was not mentioned. But I believe that they would have stood the logic that if we are calling the CC meeting for this, then we would have known about it earlier. Exactly when I don't think they knew.

Edwin Tong  1:54:44  
So it's possible that they would have been aware or they would have thought that you would have been aware shortly before the meeting was called.

Sylvia Lim  1:54:53  
I don't know what they thought but it's possible.

Edwin Tong  1:54:55  
Yes. So the fact that you the three Members of the Workers Party. And I think for short, I'll just say the senior leadership, referring to yourself, Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal, the fact that the senior leadership were aware, a few of the lie a few days after he was told in Parliament by Miss Kahn was not something that, as far as you know, the CEC was aware of on the 29th of October, correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:55:21  
I cannot recall what they knew. But at the meeting on the 29th of October, the date of it August was not mentioned.

Edwin Tong  1:55:29  
So certainly, as far as speaking for yourself, you did not tell anyone on the CEC that you were aware of the lie on the eighth of August, correct. At the meeting itself, at the meeting or anywhere else?

Sylvia Lim  1:55:42  
I did not see. Yeah. When I knew.

Edwin Tong  1:55:45  
Okay. All right. Thank you. Now, the statement was then made in Parliament on the first of November, the following Monday, I think it was right. And on Tuesday, the second of November, the Workers Party CC set up a disciplinary panel, correct? Yes. as of the date on which the DEP again, I'll call it the DEP for short was set up by the CDC. The CDC was also not aware at the time that the senior leadership of the Workers' Party had already been aware of the falsehood by the eighth of August, correct.

Sylvia Lim  1:56:23  
The CEC I think the the members were not aware of when we came to the knowledge. Yeah. So eight of August, I think they they may not have known.

Edwin Tong  1:56:49  
Sorry, Jim is asking whether I want to take a break. Now I know. We've got asked you a Muslim? Would you like to take a break Muslim? Depends on how long I think it'll be about 10 to 15 minutes. And I don't know about my colleagues. So I mean, your hands if you'd like take a break. Why don't

Tan Chuan-Jin:  1:57:05  
we why not? You carry on with the 1015 minutes and then we take a short break.

Edwin Tong  1:57:09  
Is that okay, mister? I'm sure. Okay. Let's check where it was.

Sylvia Lim  1:57:16  
Disciplinary panel.

Edwin Tong  1:57:18  
Yes. And I think you said the CDC was not aware when we when we came to it. August I think we may not have known. Okay. Now.

Amongst the steps taken by the DP, or which you were a member, yes. Was an invitation to workers party members to make submissions and to offer their views to the DP on this matter? Correct. The matter me, meaning the lie in Parliament by Miss Kahn.

Sylvia Lim  1:57:49  
Yeah, we saw their views as just part of also including party members in this process. Yes,

Edwin Tong  1:57:54  
I understand. But in that context, Would you not agree that the fact that Miss Kahn had told the senior leadership of the Workers Party about the lie as early as eighth of August, which is about almost three months prior to the setup of the DEP? Would that fact not be relevant to be disclosed to members of the Workers Party? Who are being invited to offer their views?

Sylvia Lim  1:58:16  
I didn't see the relevance of that, actually.

Edwin Tong  1:58:20  
Because, I mean, as you know, as a lawyer on both of us lawyers, we would appreciate that one of the usual mitigating circumstances that come up would be the extent to which how early and whether an accused person admits to guilt Correct? Yeah, but

Sylvia Lim  1:58:41  
I mean, if you look at the letter that we wrote to miss Kahn about the the proceedings that we were engaging in, and I believe that you probably have seen the letter I sent it to one day on the second of November. Yeah, heavier as

Edwin Tong  1:59:05  
it is in the pilot. It is in the records there, but I forget the CRP reference number. Can you help me as well?

I think if you want to miss Kahn submissions, if I remember. Miss Kahn, second. December's it, yes. Muslim, do

Sylvia Lim  1:59:32  
you have it? Oh, yes. I have my email to her. So you're referring to that? Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. So I wrote to her on the second of November to inform her of the disciplinary panel, I mean, formally to inform of the dismay panel setup and what we were looking into, and it was explained to her I don't know whether you have the email. Yes, I have the email. Okay. So it was explained to her that that wasn't what we were inquiring into worthy untruths. Okay, so the untruth toll on third August, and also the fact that she repeated the claim on on fourth October. Okay, so So that was it, we were inquiring into the untruth, told by her in Parliament on the third of October, and on the fourth of a third of August and the fourth of October, which she subsequently, you know, clarified on the first of November, we told her that this is what the committee is looking into. And at the same time, this is actually constituted under Article 20 of the party constitution, which is the article which allows the party CC to take action against members who have acted contrary to the principles of the party or prejudicial to the welfare of the party. So she was put on notice that this was a proceeding that may lead to disciplinary action in accordance with that particular article. Might so she was invited to provide an explanation in writing as to why this incident happened. You know, and if there is any supporting evidence to corroborate what she said on the first of November, which was the clarification statement, then she should provide them. So the DEP was looking into the untruths. And that's it.

Edwin Tong  2:01:17  
Okay. The The point I'm making is I appreciate the the email that was sent to miss Carr, I think she would have understood it in the way that you've just outlined. But this is to miss Kahn, directly. Yes, the question I had was somewhat different. You are also on an AI, we heard evidence that on the 10th of November, more WhatsApp or text message blasts was sent to all members of the Workers Party, inviting them to make comments and offer their views. And the views, as I said earlier, included, what the appropriate sanction would be for the DEP to consider recommending to the CEC, a range of Yeah, I would say it's a range of whether she should be expelled or whether she should be retained as an MP. So it is in this context, that I'm saying that the information about Miss cans coming to the senior leadership of the Workers Party, to admit her guilt, and to say that this was a lie or falsehood in Parliament, would not be relevant to the gravamen and level of culpability of her conduct. And, and I'm putting to you that in this context, it is relevant because you are asking members to make a recommendation to you as a DP for you to decide what to do with her What punishment is appropriate for her. But you know, that context,

Sylvia Lim  2:02:41  
okay, so So as I mentioned, the DP was focusing on looking at the untruths that were told, why did they why were the untruths told? And why is it that you know, it was repeated, and in the end clarify on first November. So this was what the DP was looking at. Our, our SMS blast to the members was basically a feedback gathering exercise. I mean, look, we are not bound by what the members tell us and the members in the main, their focus was, whether it's okay for an MP to lie in Parliament or not. I mean, that was the focus of their feedback to us.

Edwin Tong  2:03:16  
I know, but they also give you a recommendation as to whether they felt you should expel her or retain her.

Sylvia Lim  2:03:20  
I mean, we took that on board. But, you know, as I said, the See, in any case, the DP is not the decision making body, you know, the DP recommends to the CC and the CC can decide otherwise as well, you know, contrary to what the DP regardless

Edwin Tong  2:03:33  
said, Yes, I understand. But, well, two points First, on the side of the members, them not knowing that Miss Kahn had, in fact, told the senior leadership of the Workers Party about the lie very early on, that would have an impact on whether they assess her to be more culpable or less culpable. Right, and hence leading to your viewers whether they should they think the DP should expel her, or retain her as an MP would not be a fair assumption? I

Sylvia Lim  2:04:05  
think that, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we were focused s in our letter to her, we will focus on the fact of how the untruth came to be told in parliament in the first place. And the fact that she had repeated it two months later, and, you know, and clarified it subsequently that it was untrue. So that was our focus. And our I mean, our SMS to the members was basically to get a sense of what is expected, what do they think is expected of a Workers Party MP? I mean, that was the gist of it. And as I mentioned, we will still need to make our own recommendations to the CDC and the CDC could decide one way or the other, they don't have to accept our recommendations.

Edwin Tong  2:04:48  
Yes. But at this point in time, that means by the time you made the recommendations, eventually to the CC, which I believe was on the 30th of November. Yes, as of this day, the CC was also not aware that Miss Kahn had come to the senior leadership or the Workers Party by the eighth of August. To say that, to explain that she had told a lie in Parliament, correct.

Sylvia Lim  2:05:15  
If I recall the CC meeting correctly Pritam did address the CDC and inform them that we are known for some time. But I cannot recall distinctly the words that he used, but it was told to the CDC at the meeting,

Edwin Tong  2:05:29  
I see. Well, that's a little different from what Mr. Singh told us. I see. And also a bit different from what Mr. Faisal told us. But we'll we'll leave it um, I think it's perhaps we'll compare the evidence. Yeah. But the point is, at the time, the CEC appointed the three of you as members of the DEP, which I think was done on the second of November itself, just before you sent out a press release, I believe. November, yes, yes. At that stage, suddenly, the CC was not aware that the three of you were already privy to the information from Miss Kahn from as early as eighth of August, correct?

Sylvia Lim  2:06:06  
I believe the CC was not aware. Yes.

Edwin Tong  2:06:08  
Thank you. So in this case. Would you not agree that the people on the DP are? Or include the very people who miss Kahn has said to her, she should continue the lie that she started in August in Parliament?

Sylvia Lim  2:06:31  
I beg your pardon again?

Edwin Tong  2:06:33  
Yes. Let me see. Let me repeat the question. I this. I said that in this case, would you don't agree that the people on the DP include the very people who miss Kahn had said, said to her should continue the lie that she started in August in Parliament? You

Sylvia Lim  2:06:47  
mean, the evidence you gave before the CRP? I mean, both the

Edwin Tong  2:06:51  
evidence that you gave before the CRP as well as in other occasions in which she said that she was told to continue the line?

Sylvia Lim  2:06:56  
I mean, we never said any such thing to her. So I don't accept the premise of your question.

Edwin Tong  2:07:02  
Okay. But you will agree that if she is right, then the DEP will comprise people who she says, told her to continue to lie. It's

Sylvia Lim  2:07:09  
a hypothetical. I

Edwin Tong  2:07:10  
don't agree with not answering that. Now. I asked you earlier whether you are aware of what Pritam what Mr. Singh had been doing, and I think your evidence was you left it to him. You didn't know what steps he was taking with her? August, September, August, September, culminating in the October period. Yeah, yeah. And your first, your first the first time back, discussing this issue with anybody was after she made the speech on the fourth of October, correct.

Sylvia Lim  2:07:40  
The first time that I spoke to anyone, that's right. Yes. Okay.

Edwin Tong  2:07:43  
Now, so you would therefore not be aware of what Mr. Singh told her precisely to do or not to do? Correct. I was not present. Yes. And so you would therefore not aware of what Mr. Singh might have told her? Directly or indirectly? Correct.

Sylvia Lim  2:08:03  
You mean, what until October or will not

Edwin Tong  2:08:06  
have been aware as of the fourth of October? What Mr. Singh was saying to miss Kahn, prior to the fourth of October, correct.

Sylvia Lim  2:08:18  
Including Toronto, Bo.

Edwin Tong  2:08:22  
Let me let me perhaps explain this and break it down for you. You said earlier that you spoke to no one about the lie or falsehood spoke to no one verbally in writing anything? Throughout August? And September, right? Yes, I believe I said that. Yeah. And you also told us that the third October meeting you didn't know on a third of October? Yeah. The first time you came into contact with any issue concerning the lie was in parliament itself. On the fourth of October, you heard her repeat the line, right? Yes. Okay. And thereafter, you had a conversation with Miss Khan at around 2pm. And later lipemia 3pm. Or, and later that day with Mr. Singh? At about 11:15pm. Right.

Sylvia Lim  2:09:05  
We spoke on the fourth of October. Yes.

Edwin Tong  2:09:07  
So at no time prior to her making the speech on the fourth of October. Would you have been aware of what guidance Mr. Singh gave to miss Kahn, what he said to miss Kahn, what he may not have said to miss Kahn, correct.

Sylvia Lim  2:09:23  
I was not present at those whatever he discussed with her. Yes. Right.

Edwin Tong  2:09:28  
So it stands to reason that you wouldn't have known what he may have discussed with her.

Sylvia Lim  2:09:34  
I can attest to in that sense.

Edwin Tong  2:09:36  
Yes. And I heard you say earlier that you will not even fathom that. He told her to lie. Yes, yes. And I heard your evidence clearly on this. But the point I'm making to you is that actually you will not be aware of what Mr. Singh may have said or may not have said to miss Kahn and given her evidence and given what she is now saying, at least to the CEO And I don't know if she was she had made this point to you earlier, but at least at a co op, Would you not agree that the DP or the morsel should not be in a position to discuss or to decide on these very issues? Because she's suggesting, at least now that at least one or more members of the DEP had told her to continue with the lie into she started in August?

Sylvia Lim  2:10:27  
I know. She had never had never know, I think it's important to explain these

Edwin Tong  2:10:32  
girls. Mr. Chairman, do you answer my question?

Sylvia Lim  2:10:35  
It's very long. Okay. But I

Edwin Tong  2:10:38  
need to I just want to make sure you understand, and then you please explain.

Sylvia Lim  2:10:43  
So as as far as I know, she had never asserted that we had told her to maintain the lie, or anyway, I told you to maintain the lie. Right up to the conclusion of the DP proceedings. So I mean, in that sense, I, I can't answer your question, because it assumes something that that I don't think is correct.

Edwin Tong  2:11:04  
Okay. So now that you know that that's what she said, under oath.

Sylvia Lim  2:11:09  
I mean, that relatedly, I suppose.

Edwin Tong  2:11:12  
I mean, I don't know if she said it earlier. But I know that she did say throws up now that you know this, would you accept that this? If she's right. This might mean that this the the members of the DEP should not be deciding and judging whether or not she was acting consistently with what she was advised to do, allegedly by senior leadership of the Workers Party, or whether she was working on your own. Would you agree,

Sylvia Lim  2:11:42  
Chairman, I think this question is not right, because it's a hypothetical. And all this while we had no knowledge that she was going to zip this allegation against any member of the DA. So it's a hypothetical, which I think is not right for me to

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:11:57  
point, the point that you're making. I understand that you were not aware of this until I guess what's been presented to a corp.

Sylvia Lim  2:12:03  
But for the series this in any of our submissions, nothing

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:12:07  
unassigned. So from the SEO perspective, we're trying to determine what exactly happened. So we have a version that's been shared by discount Corp, which stated that she was told to continue on with the lie, which will disagree, and with the other members have disagreed. So that's one perspective. The other perspective is one that you've shared that no such directions were given. So we are trying to ascertain as to how these two possible lines develop, and all the associated activities. So they want Mr. Tong is asking is that, with regards to the composition of disciplinary panel is that if this version as misconduct share, that she was taught to continue the lie by one or more of the members, who now comprise a disciplinary panel, now we've knowing this as a possible scenario, would you agree that there is a conflict, that the same three person would be on the three panel? I know that you disagree with that being the truth, but if that allegation is valid, would that also suggest therefore the composition of this panel, or there's an issue with that?

Sylvia Lim  2:13:19  
Chairman, I still feel that this is a hypothetical put to me.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:13:22  
So gives any guess he was never

Sylvia Lim  2:13:25  
raised?

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:13:27  
It was never raised to you know? Yeah, I don't, we're not asking, you know, so are we asking us we are asking, as of now, as one of the allegations made? Would it be fair to say that, that there would be an issue with the composition decision? If indeed, what she claimed was true? Would that be an issue?

Sylvia Lim  2:13:45  
If the if she had raised this matter earlier, then perhaps the composition could be different. But this is never the case. And it's a belated allegation? So I we don't see any issue with the composition of disciplinary panel at the point in time,

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:14:00  
in hindsight, now looking at if indeed that allegation was true. Would that be an issue? The composition of the panel?

Sylvia Lim  2:14:08  
If Jim is still a hypothetical, I mean, I must assume something that

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:14:13  
I understand. So I want to because from your perspective, this allegation that Muskaan is made, is not true. Yes. Right. So but what if, and we are trying to determine who is telling the truth, right, which line makes sense? So one perspective is that this lie, she was told to carry on with this lie, from your perspective, that was not set at all. So we have to determine the series of events that flow from that and what seems to make sense. So if indeed, that what she said, was true, if indeed, let's suppose if that's true, then would that therefore mean that the composition of the supreme panel, there's an issue with that, which is really,

Sylvia Lim  2:14:52  
if she had raised this issue earlier on, we may have dealt with it at that point in time. But the fact is that we did not Any such issue and that was never raised on the site. So, you know, that's

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:15:03  
that's the that's the version. Yeah. What I'm saying is that if she had been told that and share continue along those deposition, then would the same composition discipline panel be an issue? If assuming that is true,

Sylvia Lim  2:15:16  
Chairman, if at any time she had taken objection to the composition of the disciplinary panel, the CC would have to assess the nature of the complaint and whether there was any reason to change the composition. So that's, that was never an issue.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:15:31  
So this is not the question at hand. The question is,

Sylvia Lim  2:15:34  
I think it's not right for me to answer this question, because you know, then.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:15:38  
So the question is, do you think or would you is an issue, if indeed, what she claim is true?

Sylvia Lim  2:15:44  
If she had raised it earlier, the CC would have looked at it. That's my answer. Okay.

Edwin Tong  2:15:49  
Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll leave that point and maybe make it put another put it another way to you. Regardless of whether Miss Kahn is right in making the point that one or more of the members of the DP had told her to continue with the lie. Would you not agree that the broader issue, the larger issue is that all of you on the DP, the senior leadership knew about misconduct lie in Parliament, some three months before it came out in the open on the first of November, we don't agree that the CEC the members of the Workers Party, and the public will be entitled to know this. So they can come in come to a fully informed, unbiased view, particularly of the membership, the Workers Party, as well as the CEC who are involved in several decision points in this process.

Sylvia Lim  2:16:50  
I think the consideration of the CEC at that point in time, about the composition of the disciplinary panel, and I speak for myself, but I believe I'm not alone in this is that first of all, this issue concerns a sitting and be alright. And secondly, because the concerns are sitting MP, it makes sense for the most senior officials to be the ones in the disciplinary panel to make appropriate recommendations to the CC on what to do. So the choice of SG chair and vice chair, it was proposed by SGX. And all of us did not see any issue with it, because it just stood to reason that the most senior people needed to look into this matter.

Edwin Tong  2:17:36  
And it didn't occur to you or cross your mind that it will be relevant to disclose the fact that even if you're the most senior and most appropriate, which I mean, on that score, I have no reason to disagree. But these are the same people who knew of the matter, some three months prior to it coming out in open in Parliament, would you not think that that's a relevant fact to disclose to the public to members of the Workers Party, and indeed to the SEC,

Sylvia Lim  2:18:01  
that was not the primary consideration on our minds at the time.

Edwin Tong  2:18:06  
Okay. Now, I'd like to show you the WhatsApp message that Miss Kahn had sent after the eighth of August meeting you, you may already be aware of what what it says but let me show it to you. It's found in Miss Lowe's submission on the second of December.

It's a series of screenshots Muslim. So if you can please turn to the second page of this bundle. On the bottom of the page, you see a screenshot which is titled AWS. Right. Okay. So this, these words were put in by Miss Lowe, eight August ratio, current updates, and she told a few party leaders. Okay, I'll read this message to you, right. It's from ratio current data eight, August, the time is 12:41pm. And for context, this is sent on a group chat where the other members of the group would be Mr. Nava, and Miss Lowe. Okay. She says, Hey, guys, I just met with Pritam, Silvia and Faisal, and we spoke about the Muslim issues and police accusation. I told them what I told you guys, and they've agreed that the best thing to do is to take the information to the grave. They also suggested that I write a statement to send out this evening. Now. Can I get your reaction to this statement? I know you didn't see it at the material time and certainly not at a time or send contemporaneously. But now that you've seen it, this is a message that was sent by Miss Kahn, shortly after she finished a meeting with you, and Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal, on the eighth of August. Can you give me a reaction to the contents of this message?

Sylvia Lim  2:19:43  
I am not sure what she's referring to. When she says they've agreed that the best thing to do is to take the information to the grave.

Edwin Tong  2:19:51  
Okay. She gave evidence that this means that the lie that she told him Parliament, on the third of August, the consensus between the three of you at the meeting of the eighth of August was that if she was not to be pressed on this matter, again, none of us if this method didn't come up again, then the best thing to do is to continue with the narrative that she told in August, which means to continue with the lie. It's not true as the evidence that she gained is not true. Okay. It's not true, because on your account, there was a there was a confession by her either bogus, and there was no response from the three of you.

Sylvia Lim  2:20:31  
We did not talk about the next steps. Yes.

Edwin Tong  2:20:35  
So your your position is that this is not true, because you simply did not address the next steps at all. Correct.

Sylvia Lim  2:20:41  
Nothing was was told to her to suppress anything. I mean, it's not correct.

Edwin Tong  2:20:45  
Well, there was also nothing told to her to come to Parliament to clarify the truth

Sylvia Lim  2:20:50  
on the eighth of August, as I mentioned earlier, because of our emotional condition, and the fact that, you know, she had kept her passed away from her parents, those were the immediate things that we were addressing. So I understand.

Edwin Tong  2:21:10  
The reason I'm asking these questions, and I also put some, what you call hypothetical to you earlier, is really because of this, and I wanted to explain this to you. Miss Kahn has come and give given evidence that she's close to Mr. Nothern, and Miss Lowe. And in fact, as I showed you, they have a group chat amongst each other. They talk about the events pertaining to the falsehood in Parliament a lot. And both all three of them have come to this committee to give evidence, and from what we see of the group chat that they have, what they discuss with with each other what they tell each other, corroborate contemporaneously occurring events. Sometimes, it also corroborates events that you're involved in. So for example, on the 25th of November, Mr. Nothern, and Miss Lowe came before the DPR member, to make some submissions to you, including, Mike, why don't you tell the public the timeline, who was involved, and so on. So there was a cooperative element to the messages that we are seeing. And I'm sharing this with you because I want to get your your reaction to this. On the other hand, on the side of the senior leadership of the Workers Party, there is no communication in writing, at least with Miss Kahn. That is, while I understand that, and I also understand why on the eighth of August, you refrain from addressing the issue head on with Miss Kahn. What I also want to understand is why it is that even internally, between the three of you, there's also not one message, or one email or something in writing, which speaks to what the three of you would want to do, or have decided to do to address the problem. yourself, I'm getting to. And I'm trying to understand why that is so and whether or not, you're able to offer us some explanation as to why there was no internal discussion between the three most senior leaders of the Workers Party. And I say that because I understand your evidence, and that are Mr. Faisal and Mr. Singh, about the sensitivity with Miss Kahn about taking into account a well being all of which I think are good, and I understand. But the question is in private, between the three of you where the emotional questions don't exist, why is it that there's no discussion between the three of you, that speaks to what you plan to do, what you want to do and what you intend for Ms. Khan to do, which is to speak the truth.

Sylvia Lim  2:23:44  
So I think we went through the earlier timelines, right. For myself, I became much more involved in the month of October. And, and during that period of time, it was a stage where we were organizing in person meetings to discuss this matter and decide what to do. So that was how we communicated.

Edwin Tong  2:24:04  
So there's, I mean, we went through this I know, but I'm asking you. Why. Why is there no correspondence between the three of you in writing that discusses your plans, when this might come up? Maybe have some contingency? Or maybe Mr. Singh updating you on when he's spoken with family or when a family is aware? And what might clear the decks for parliament to then be told about the lie? I'm just trying to understand why there isn't that contemporary Enos internal correspondence between the three of you who are the senior leaders who were aware of the live from the eighth of August?

Sylvia Lim  2:24:41  
Well, I think during the month of August, I mean, this is when the the speech was made and subsequently what was told to us on the eighth, and then we go into the month of September, where where rice is not well So as I said, at that time, I left it to Mr. Singh to manage for the reasons which I described earlier. And therefore, you know, he was just left in that way, you know, and I didn't speak to him very much about this matter until October came along.

Edwin Tong  2:25:18  
Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I got no further questions.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:25:22  
We will, we will take a break. But just a quick check for members and you would like to ask questions. Long, short.

Sylvia Lim  2:25:32  
May may also produce some documents to the committee after the break.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:25:38  
Yes, you me? Yes. Perhaps. So let's take a break now. Shall we adjourn? And now it's 235. And let's come back.

Edwin Tong  2:25:46  
So Mr. Chairman, can I just ask mislim? One question. Yes. Because I She's, you said that there was some documents you want to produce? Do they relate to the points we have just covered?

Sylvia Lim  2:25:55  
It's more to do with the DEP. Actually, the DEP. Yeah. Because I believe that the committee was interested to know about the work of the DEP. Yes. And from what I understood, there were some suggestions that the DEP was not doing the work that it was supposed to be doing. So it in relation to that.

Edwin Tong  2:26:13  
Ah, okay. The I know what you're talking about, there were some messages that were being sent by Miss Kahn in the closed group with Miss Kahn and Miss Lowe and Mr. Navin where they were recounting what she was asked. And the suggestion there in that group was that she was being asked questions which exceeded or did not fall within the scope of looking to the false. So is it that you're referring not just that so maybe you make those available to us today, we can decide whether we can ask

Sylvia Lim  2:26:46  
perhaps I can do that after the break because I feel it's important for me to explain the context of the documents.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:26:52  
You can do that. Okay, you got to stop to make copies of it to distribute out later after the break. We will adjourn to 250 we take a short break 255 one we just rounded up 3pm So we're gonna have your lunch and do a bio break we will need that thank you very much Thank you. Let me say. Okay,