Committee of Privileges Hearing on 2 December 2021 - Ms Loh Pei Ying: Transcript

Preamble:

What follows is a transcript (run through Otter.ai, with minimal editing - I just tagged the speakers) of the govsg video in the title.  

Though speech recognition technology has made leaps and bounds in recent years, it still isn't good enough for very accurate transcripts. So take the below as a free (for you, dear reader, at least) and rough transcript, with no warranty as to accuracy - for convenience instead of an accurate transcript. Nonetheless, I believe this will be helpful, especially for archival purposes.

If anyone wants to do or pay for manual transcription (building on the below or otherwise), that would be great. I'm not going to do 9 hours of manual transcription (with more videos almost certainly on the way).

The official transcripts may well come out publicly later (the transcripts and evidence given to the committee are supposed to be confidential but everything is on YouTube: go figure; that was a very short embargo period). If they do, please use those instead. In the meantime, you may profit from the following; you can find links to all my COP transcripts at the index post.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  0:00  
call the meeting to order. Sergeant at Arms please invite the first witness to the witness table

please take a seat, Miss Liu. Thank you. For the record. Please state your name, your occupation and the positions you hold.

Loh Pei Ying  0:25  
Hi, my name is loping. I'm the head and co founder of database and editorial studio based in Singapore continent list in the Workers Party, I'm a cabinet member and prior to her resignation, I was secretarial assistant to this very second,

Tan Chuan-Jin:  0:42  
okay, thank you. Now the evidence you will be giving today before the committee will be taken on oath or affirmation and we will so desire can also take an affirmation so Clerk please administer doe.

Loh Pei Ying  1:21  
I low paying, do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence which I shall give before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  1:36  
Please be seated. Now the committee of privileges is looking into the complaint made by the Leader of the House Miss Indrani Raja against former member of Sengkang GRC Miss Raisa Khan, for breach of privilege. So thank you very much again for attending today's hearing to give evidence before the committee and to answer the questions which members of the committee would like to put to you? Now you have taken a solemn obligation to answer our questions truthfully. And you are under oath, or affirmation? And if you refuse to answer questions directly or attempt to mislead the committee, such behavior will be an offence and in contempt of this committee. Have not call on Mr. Mr. Winter to raise questions. Good morning.

Edwin Tong  2:27  
Good morning. Miss Lowe. Thank you very much for coming to assist with the CLP proceedings. We will, as you heard from Chairman, Miss Kahn is facing an inquiry into some untruths that were spoken in Parliament, and also a failure to substantiate those untruths. That's the substance of the leaders complaint, which the CO P is looking into Mishcon in Parliament had admitted to those untruths. This Co Op, however, needs to understand the circumstances in which those untruths came to be spoken, the statements came to be made in Parliament. And one of our tasks is to assess the context to determine the culpability of misconduct, because one of the things we have to do is to make findings, which are factual, and also make recommendations as to the appropriate sanctions. So I'll be asking you questions in that context to elicit from you the background circumstances in the context which led up to the statements, the various statements being made. Were relevant. I will also ask you to expand on some of the questions and the answers that you give, to help us to understand the context as well. And also, if there are other people who might be able to assist the committee, in relation to the questions that I raised with you, please do inform us now, can't you? Now, Miss Lowe, you mentioned earlier that you until her resignation was the secretarial assistant to miss Kahn. There would have been since July 2020. Correct. That's right. Prior to that, you will also secretarial assistant to Mr. Pritam. Singh. Would that be right? That's correct. That's for a period of about three years from March 2013 to January 2016. Correct. What led you to step down from that role in January 2016.

Loh Pei Ying  4:22  
Just general fatigue, I was quite tired. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  4:26  
Okay. I understand. You are presently the head and co founder of continental list. That's an EU also on its editorial team. Yes, I am. You will also previously freelance editor of trip.com. Very, very briefly. Yeah. Okay. And for a period you will also a curatorial research assistant at ACL. Correct. In the context of your role as a secretary, which are called sa for short. Yeah. And you've played this role for several years with different members of parliament. Can you give us a broad description of your duties? What do you do?

Loh Pei Ying  5:07  
On both instances to both Mr. Pritam Singh and Miss various icon, my role as a secretarial assistant was confined quite strictly to just organizing their meet the people session. And that includes helping to roster volunteers for the meet the people session, and also help to draft letters that will be sent to various agencies,

Edwin Tong  5:28  
in particular, to miss Kahn for the past one year or so. Can you describe this role in more detail?

Loh Pei Ying  5:36  
It's exactly what I've described, I help Rosta volunteers to be present at the meet the people session. And I also helped to, you know, prepare the letters that will be sent to various government agencies, and that includes verifying factual information, occasionally speaking to residents, to confirm details and etc. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  5:59  
Besides this does miss can discuss matters review pertaining to the Workers Party? Yes, she does. Can you give us an idea of what those matters might be

Loh Pei Ying  6:11  
time to timers can share with me. For example, on occasion, if she needs my assistance, on my assistance, on some speeches, she might ask me to help take a look or help with some research matters. And also just sort of miscellaneous party affairs like if there is a meeting, etc.

Edwin Tong  6:30  
So you will regard that as part of your duties as NSA as well.

Loh Pei Ying  6:35  
Not quite, I see it as my capacity as a member of the Workers Party, and it's a volunteer of the Workers Party,

Edwin Tong  6:41  
and presumably as a cabinet member as well. That's right. Miss Kahn made a number of speeches and also as a couple of PQ s and raise supplementary questions in Parliament. You will be familiar with some of them, she would have discussed it with you.

Loh Pei Ying  6:54  
Only some generally, from my understanding Miss Kahn works on all of her PQ s and her speeches on her own.

Edwin Tong  7:01  
Understand. When she does discuss her speeches, and PQ is with you. Give me a sense of what the nature of those discussions would be.

Loh Pei Ying  7:11  
It's just to have another set of eyes to look over her speech to make sure that I guess the speech is sound. And to sometimes if she has, I guess, some research materials that she wants a second person to verify and confirm facts and figures that's out there for public consumption. And ensuring that, you know, the speech reads clearly and is easy to understand,

Edwin Tong  7:38  
and also accurately conveys the points that speech intends to make. Yes. What about after speeches are made or pews are asked in Parliament? Is there a review? No, not with me? Is there a discussion as to what what are the learning points? Not with me on with you? Are you aware if these discussions are held with anybody in a Workers Party?

Loh Pei Ying  8:03  
I only have second hand information of what's been taught to me and I believe that the MPs review sometimes, after a session,

Edwin Tong  8:13  
do the MPs review before the speeches are made?

Loh Pei Ying  8:17  
I believe that MPs do sort of share speeches with each other prior to making them in Parliament and give each other comments. Yes,

Edwin Tong  8:25  
you're familiar with a statement made by an ex member Member of Parliament from Workers Party, Mr. Daniel go in relation to his suggestion or his own knowledge that MPs usually share speeches. And there is a consensus reached on the speeches? Would that be your understanding as well?

Loh Pei Ying  8:45  
I can confirm this because I'm not part of that process. So I don't know to what degree they confirm on the speeches, but I do know that they sort of review it together.

Edwin Tong  8:55  
I'm just asking you from the perspective of your own personal knowledge. So I'm not asking you to second guess what other people might or may not have done, but from what you know, is that process followed? Yes. So the process that Mr. Goh described where there is a consensus prior to a speech being delivered, that would be followed? Yes. And are you aware if anyone else outside of members of parliament are involved in the process? mean for example, there'll be speech writers, as is assisting each of the members of parliament.

Loh Pei Ying  9:27  
To my knowledge, Mr. Pritam Singh has two legislative assistance which he was entitled to hire, after being appointed as leader of the opposition. And to my knowledge, they are the only two that involve I don't know anyone else.

Edwin Tong  9:39  
You don't know of anyone else. Yeah, but there could be. I don't know. In the context of the speeches that you do assist Miss Kahn with Can you give me an idea as to what the processes how is that done?

Loh Pei Ying  9:55  
Usually she's already done if the speech and it's either the day before or the Morning After that, she asked me to just take a quick look.

Edwin Tong  10:03  
And how are those comments conveyed to miss Kahn?

Loh Pei Ying  10:08  
Over WhatsApp? I will just give her my thoughts.

Edwin Tong  10:11  
Okay. And do you get to see the various iterations of the speech and you give your view? rough turn around? No, I don't. You don't? Yeah. Besides speeches made in Parliament, do you also assist miscarried speeches made outside of Parliament? Say at events or?

Loh Pei Ying  10:36  
No, I don't. Yeah, I don't, but I, I occasionally assist her with, again, she's already drafted, for example, like a social media post. And I just helped to review it and ensure that again, it's understand, easy to understand, you know, grandma's correct, etc.

Edwin Tong  10:53  
On social media on Facebook, or Instagram or any of these other channels. Yeah. Understand. So you would generally be through these touch points. Be broadly familiar with the kind of approach that Miss Kahn takes the views that she holds the approach that she would take in conveying her views, both in Parliament as well as on social media channels? Would it be fair to say that?

Loh Pei Ying  11:27  
I guess I can't really say that I will be, you know, 100% cognizant of your intentions? Yeah. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  11:37  
Okay. Now, you will be familiar that on the third of August, Miss Kahn made a speech? Yes. That was in the context of motion that was moved by the Workers Party. Miss her and Mr. Pereira were the movers of the motion. And before we get to the portions of the speech that concern the that the leader of the House had raised, you will remember that. Two other points Miss Kahn made was on female genital mutilation and on Muslim marriages. Yeah. Were you familiar with those topics? And did she discuss that with you? Not at all, she did not discuss those with me. So you're not familiar with how he was drafted or who drafted it?

Loh Pei Ying  12:23  
Yes. That particular speech? I had no involvement in.

Edwin Tong  12:27  
Do you know who had involvement? No, I do not. You have no idea? No. It was made without your knowledge? Or did you know that such a speech would be made? No, I

Loh Pei Ying  12:37  
did not know that such a speech will be made.

Edwin Tong  12:39  
Did you know that such a motion was being moved? Yeah, I

Loh Pei Ying  12:42  
was aware that the party was moving a motion?

Edwin Tong  12:45  
And did you not discuss with Miss Kahn, whether she'll be making a speech? On emotion? No, I did not discuss with her. And she didn't raise that with you either. No. Are you familiar with anyone who might have assisted Miss Kahn in relation to that speech? No. You know, means you're not familiar, or no one else assisted her with that speech?

Loh Pei Ying  13:09  
No, I'm not familiar.

Edwin Tong  13:11  
So there might have been someone but you just don't know. What about after the speech was made? Do? Were you aware of any discussions that Miss Kahn might have had with anyone after the speech was made?

Loh Pei Ying  13:25  
Yes, I have information on that.

Edwin Tong  13:27  
Okay. So let's take a step by step. Did she discuss the speech with you after he was made? Yes, she did. Can you tell us the substance of the discussion? Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt starting with when that took place. The reference point being that the speech was being on a third of August.

Loh Pei Ying  13:48  
Yeah. I first came to learn that she had made the speech on the midnight of the third of August itself. I was late to check my phone messages. And I saw, I guess, the discussion and the commotion happening following the news. And they after I give her my thoughts on the matter. And I know that she had also discussed with Mr. Pritam Singh on the

Edwin Tong  14:13  
matter, on the third of August itself,

Loh Pei Ying  14:16  
I believe so yes. All right.

Edwin Tong  14:18  
What thoughts did you give to miss Kahn, on the third of August?

Loh Pei Ying  14:24  
At the time, I had also the same information as the public which I had the understanding that she had accompany this survivor to the police station. And I advised her that because it's important to protect the survivors confidentiality, that she should not share information about the victim's identity because I didn't think that was the right thing to do.

Edwin Tong  14:49  
Right. By the time you spoke with her, had you seen the speech? Not in full. I'd like to show you a copy of the speech and extract of the speech so that you We are all on the same page. Yeah. Right. May, Mr. Chairman, have the clerk, hand out a copy of the extract of the speech been by Miss Kahn? Yes. August.

Mr. Chairman, as a matter of housekeeping, there might be several documents that we tend. So can I suggest that for identification purposes, we mark them? And perhaps we mark them sequentially, we call them up 123, and so on.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  15:30  
Yes, we can do them for easier reference.

Edwin Tong  15:48  
Let's lower the opening pages, the starting point of the motion being moved by miss her. If you would just look at the bottom right hand corner, you will see the page numbers. Could I please refer you to page 90?

Do you see that that's the start of misconduct speech. She raises various points about sexual violence. In the fourth paragraph, sexual assault cases talking about what happened in the case of a South Korean female Air Force officer. And over the page, you'll see the paragraph that I'd like you to focus on, which starts with in my line of work. Do you see that? Yes. So she says I've accompany people to police stations to make reports on sexual violence. It is really incredibly difficult for survivors to feel comfortable making a report in the first place. But sometimes the responses from those call to protect us can be disheartening. Three years ago, I accompanied a 25 year old survivor to make a police report against a rape that was committed against her. She came out crying. The police officer had allegedly made comments about addressing the fact that she was drinking. This would have been one of the paragraphs that you had discussed with her in your call on the third of August, correct? I did not call her on the third of August. How did you discuss this with her on WhatsApp and WhatsApp? So the nature of the discussions that you had with her on WhatsApp would have centered on this paragraph amongst others? Yes. You told us that you said to her that it is important to ensure that the confidentiality of the individual be protected. Yeah. Was that the only point you made to her?

Loh Pei Ying  17:37  
That was the primary point.

Edwin Tong  17:40  
Would you still have those WhatsApp messages and exchanges with Miss Khan?

Loh Pei Ying  17:45  
Yeah, I do. Yes.

Edwin Tong  17:47  
It over the course of this session, to the extent relevant and Mr. Chairman will determine that I will make a request for the production of some documents. And so in relation to this series of WhatsApp chats, I'd like to make a request that you produce them to the CRP. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Now, at that point in time, did you ask Miss Kahn, whether this occasion actually happened?

Loh Pei Ying  18:14  
No, because I also believed that it was true.

Edwin Tong  18:17  
Did she shared with you that she was not able to substantiate this account?

Loh Pei Ying  18:24  
I had, what information she shared with parliament, which that she cannot contact us via an email.

Edwin Tong  18:30  
So as of third of August, what you knew was what was said in Parliament. That's right. Over the course of your subsequent discussions with her, did that view change?

Loh Pei Ying  18:45  
I don't understand what you mean.

Edwin Tong  18:48  
The third of August midnight was when you first had an exchange of messages with Miss Kahn over this speech. And you are telling us that as of that time, your state of knowledge was exactly as what she had said in Parliament. So you only knew the material that was public. But you also would have engaged in subsequent discussions with her? Correct? Yes, correct. So at it at any point thereafter, did your view change? Did you come to learn that this fact or this anecdote was not true? Yes, I did. What stage did you learn that?

Loh Pei Ying  19:22  
On the seventh of August in the evening, mytheresa, Khan had WhatsApp, me and another party colleague to say that she had done something bad. And then we had hopped on a zoom call to discuss this and that's when she told me of the truth.

Edwin Tong  19:40  
Can you briefly describe the tenor of the WhatsApp discussion that you had with her on the seventh of August?

Loh Pei Ying  19:46  
It sounded serious. And I was willing to listen to her and also show my concern for her as both a friend and as a party coming

Edwin Tong  19:58  
close. Can you give us a gist of the messages that you exchanged with her on the seventh of August?

Loh Pei Ying  20:05  
It was really short. She just said that she had done something bad. And I asked her what it was. And then she she did say that. That point of time, she did say that there were only two people who knew of what this was. And she said, her husband and Mr. Pritam Singh.

Edwin Tong  20:33  
You said that thereafter, you hopped onto a zoom discussion? Yeah. Can you tell us who was on the Zoom discussion?

Loh Pei Ying  20:39  
Myself? And Mr. Udall, Shannon,

Edwin Tong  20:45  
with Miss Kahn. That's right. Who is Mr. Yudhishthira?

Loh Pei Ying  20:48  
Now that he's also Academy member of the Workers Party?

Edwin Tong  20:52  
Can you tell us a little bit more about Mr. Nathan?

Loh Pei Ying  20:56  
What more do you want to know?

Edwin Tong  20:57  
I mean, was he a secretarial assistant as well, to my

Loh Pei Ying  21:01  
knowledge, he did not he didn't have any legislative or secretarial assistant posts. But he was briefly I think, a member of the Workers Party using the part of the executive committee of the Workers Party youth. So

Edwin Tong  21:13  
to your knowledge, what was his role in the context of this speech, just as a friend. So in other words, not having been involved initially in the speech, but subsequently, given that there was a realization that there was a problem, in your words, a serious problem. He got involved.

Loh Pei Ying  21:31  
Maybe I can, at some points to clarify this. Myself, Mr Nathan and Miss Khan, we have a WhatsApp group together, where we often just discuss things in general. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  21:44  
And we've missed another and be one where Miss Khan would bounce ideas off and discuss generally, generally, yes, those would include speeches, approaches, political points, strategy, and so on.

Loh Pei Ying  21:57  
Yes, but not this particular speech. Not prior to making the speech,

Edwin Tong  22:02  
but certainly after, yeah. There would have been quite a an active discussion subsequent to the speech, would you say? Yes, in the days after third of August? Yes. So that culminated in the seventh of August, and you said there was a zoom discussion? Yes. Can you give us the gist of the Zoom discussion.

Loh Pei Ying  22:24  
She told us that she had lied, because she was once a victim herself, or a survivor herself of sexual assault. she relayed to us that this had happened when she was overseas when she was 18. And that she had sought, I guess, to heal from this episode by attending support groups. And that's when she learned of this anecdote. And she told us that she could not share the circumstances of her learning of this anecdote, because she also did not want to review that she was a member of the support group, and therefore, also that she's a victim of sexual assault. But

Edwin Tong  23:07  
she made clear to yourself, Miss northern Mr. Northern Africa. Pardon that? The anecdote was false. Yeah, that's right, and that she was not able to substantiate it. That's right. What was your reaction?

Loh Pei Ying  23:21  
I was shocked, of course, very disappointed. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  23:25  
What did you advise her to do?

Loh Pei Ying  23:28  
At that point of time, my primary points to how was as a friend, I did not advise her to take any particular cause of action. I just listened and maintain her confidentiality, because she was so survivor of a sexual assault.

Edwin Tong  23:47  
There are a couple of issues, which would have been germane at that point in time. Looking at it from your perspective, and just putting together the evidence that you've just given us, you've come to learn a bit for the first time. You obviously want to protect someone whom you regard not just as a member of parliament and a fellow party member, but also a friend, as you say. And you therefore are keen to ensure that she is also protected given her own experience. I assume that's one perspective that you had today,

Loh Pei Ying  24:21  
my protection, my desire to so called Protector was only to protect her confidentiality as a victim of sexual assault, not in any other way.

Edwin Tong  24:32  
Were you concerned that a statement had been made in Parliament? That was not true? Yes,

Loh Pei Ying  24:36  
I was concerned.

Edwin Tong  24:37  
And did you give her any views on that?

Loh Pei Ying  24:41  
I didn't feel a need to because as I said, at that point of time, when she told me I also had knowledge that our party leader Pritam Singh already knew, and it didn't feel like I needed to take any further action on that.

Edwin Tong  24:54  
I'll come to that in a moment. But would you be able to describe Mr. Nava reaction on resume discussion. First of all, let me back up a little bit. You said as a group chat. So can you describe Mr. northerns responses on this group chat in relation to the discovery that what was said, on a third of August was not true.

Loh Pei Ying  25:18  
He had similar views to me, I believe, I can't recall the exact exchange because as you said, it was quite animated.

Edwin Tong  25:26  
And active animated on the WhatsApp chat.

Loh Pei Ying  25:29  
Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest, like it was it was animated, we obviously felt that we felt bad for her that she was falling. I mean, question subsequently. And we wanted to comfort her to say that she had answered to her knowledge what she could in Parliament, and that there was no need to further fret on the matter when

Edwin Tong  25:49  
you said answer subsequently mean on the third of August? Yes, on top of this, because you you're probably referring to a subsequent occasion when Mrs. Deshpande, tan stood up to seek a therapist. And subsequently, I think Miss Kahn herself stood up to make a clarification. That's right. You're referring to those occasions? Yes. Right. Okay, we will come to the subsequent discussions after third of August later on, so that we get the timeline right, I just make sure that our lines don't cross this WhatsApp chat group. Could you also produce it to the CRP please? Yeah, at least in relation to the discussions on the third of August speech, and any other discussions thereafter that you might have arising from this?

Loh Pei Ying  26:32  
I'm not I admittedly, I'm not fully comfortable doing so because it also caught it's it's a it's a chat for friends. That's not a concept that's like anecdotes about my family. And all that there, too.

Edwin Tong  26:42  
I understand. So to the extent that these personal anecdotes on your family, I think we should exclude those. Okay. But I'm just asking you to give us the chats and discussions in relation to what happened on the third of August, your discussions on that, and anything else you may have developed from that thereafter? Okay. Okay. Thank you. At the zoom session, what was Mr. northerns? Reaction?

Loh Pei Ying  27:07  
I think he was just as shocked as me.

Edwin Tong  27:10  
What did he say?

Loh Pei Ying  27:12  
I can't recall exactly.

Edwin Tong  27:14  
Can you give us a gist of what he said?

Loh Pei Ying  27:19  
I think it was, again, similar to what I said, which is our primary concern was to just console her. Listen, and that was primarily it. We didn't advise on any particular course of action.

Edwin Tong  27:34  
So as of the Zoom discussion on the seventh of August, both of you had known that Mr. Pritam Singh was aware that what Miss concert on the third of August was false.

Loh Pei Ying  27:48  
He knew that an untruth had been said, but I think he only knew the full facts of the seventh of August because Miss Han had shared that. She had meeting with him on I believe, the eighth of August.

Edwin Tong  28:03  
Okay. Just hold on to that timeline for a moment. I just want to keep to the seventh of August for the time being. How did you know as of you and Mr. Nothern? No, as of seventh of August that Mr. Singh was aware that there were untruths spoken by Miss Kahn, on the third of August?

Loh Pei Ying  28:24  
I believe from what Miss Han has shared with me, okay. In the WhatsApp group, she said, experts like before she's told the whole thing she she said in the WhatsApp group. I asked who knows? And she said, Only my husband and Mr. Pritam Singh, not my husband, her husband. And then she and then on the Zoom call, she said, I believe that she told him over the phone that it was not totally true. But I don't think at that point, he had the full story, so to speak.

Edwin Tong  29:02  
When you made the point about who knows? The nose refers to the fact that there was a false statement said in

Loh Pei Ying  29:09  
part No, at that point, and she sent that message on WhatsApp. I didn't know what was the thing to know. I see. I went through a list. I was like, did you resign? Did you do this today?

Edwin Tong  29:19  
Yeah. But at some stage before the seventh of August Zoom meeting, you must have known that the fact in question is that there was an untruth said in Parliament?

Loh Pei Ying  29:28  
No, no, she didn't refer to that when she said I did something. But she didn't refer to the third of August. So

Edwin Tong  29:35  
it was only said in general terms on the chat. Yeah. And then it was only on the seventh of August Zoom meeting, that you and Mr. Neither knew that the fact in question is something bad in question relates to

Loh Pei Ying  29:50  
Yeah, it was only on a Zoom meeting that we realized it was only

Edwin Tong  29:54  
sort of transferring. If we speak over each other they can record just to repeat the question. It was On the seventh of August that you and Mr. Neither knew that the something bad refers to the falsehood that she had said in Parliament on the third of August. Yeah. And that was the premise of getting coming together to discuss the matter on Zoom. Yeah. And when she said to you that only Mr. Singh, or at least Mr. Singh and her husband, were aware, did she explain when they were aware?

Loh Pei Ying  30:33  
She didn't explain when her husband was aware, but she did explain that she had a phone call with Mr. Singh. That afternoon.

Edwin Tong  30:41  
On the seventh of August, yes. Did she describe the nature of that phone call was discussed? Not

Loh Pei Ying  30:48  
in tremendous detail, but just that she had told him that it was not true.

Edwin Tong  30:56  
Did she tell you, Mr. Northern at the Zoom call what his reaction was? No. You you earlier mentioned that. Sorry. I would like to clarify that. Not that I recall. Mother. So she might have Yes, she might have. She might have told you and Mr. Nothern. What Mr. Singh's reaction was?

Loh Pei Ying  31:19  
Yeah. I can't recall. Exactly.

Edwin Tong  31:22  
But both you and Mr. Nava were present. Yes. Mr. Nothern. might recall.

Loh Pei Ying  31:27  
I suppose so. Yes. Right.

Edwin Tong  31:30  
Early on, when you said your principal focus, and I know you said that in the context of really, she's a friend of yours. was on her. Her own confidentiality, in your words? Yeah. And you said, when I asked you about the falsehood, said in Parliament, you say, Well, I knew Mr. Singh was aware. I take it that you said that because you somewhat assuaged that senior party members of the Workers Party were aware. And it is your expectation that the problem will be sorted out at that level? Yes. That's your expectation. And would it be fair to say that that's also Mr. northerns? expectation? Yes. Which is why both of you would have been focused on her welfare, rather than what was and turned out to be a serious issue in Parliament? Yes. This expectation that Mr. Singh, was aware, and therefore senior members of the Workers Party would be coming in to solve the problem. Was that shared by Miss Kahn?

Loh Pei Ying  32:35  
Sorry, can you repeat that question, again, the

Edwin Tong  32:39  
expectation that asked you about yourself, Mr. Northern, that Mr. Singh was aware, and he would, as a senior party member of the Workers Party, deal with the problem. To your knowledge, was that also something that Miss Kahn expected, or that she shared with you?

Loh Pei Ying  32:59  
I guess to some degree, yes. I can testify again to how she truly felt on the meta and all her thoughts on it. But I think on her part, she might have felt that, and this is my assumption. on her part, she might have felt that she had done her part to report it to her party, Anita?

Edwin Tong  33:35  
No, you mentioned that her husband was also away. Yeah. Do you know when he was away? No. But certainly by the seventh of August, he was away.

Loh Pei Ying  33:49  
According to what she shared with me. Yes.

Edwin Tong  33:53  
You also mentioned earlier on that, subsequent to the discussion on the seventh of August that Miss Khan had a conversation with Mr. Singh. You set it up August earlier. That's right. How did you learn about this?

Loh Pei Ying  34:08  
Sorry, give me a sec. I'm trying to recall. I can't remember when exactly I learned of it. But I believe he was. I think she might have messaged me on the day itself. Yeah,

Edwin Tong  34:21  
on the eighth of August. Yeah. Can you describe the gist of that message?

Loh Pei Ying  34:26  
She shared that she had informed Mr. Singh, Miss Sylvia Lim and Mr. For examiner.

Edwin Tong  34:35  
What did she see that she shared with him?

Loh Pei Ying  34:39  
I only have what is on WhatsApp wishes that she discussed. The speech told them the truth. Yeah. I don't know in exact detail of that conversation.

Edwin Tong  34:51  
So your understanding is that at the very minimum, she would have told Mr. Pritam Singh, Miss Sylvia Lim and Mr. Faisal mana that the anecdote She referred to in Parliament was false. Yes. What else? Did she say in the WhatsApp discussion with you on the eighth of August?

Loh Pei Ying  35:10  
I can't recall.

Edwin Tong  35:13  
Would you also be able to produce this WhatsApp discussion? I'll have to check in. Okay, my phone? Yes, of course. Because that would help us understand what was discussed and also fill in some gaps to the extent that you're not able to recall, which I entirely understand sitting here. Okay. After the eighth of August, when the three senior party members were aware that there was a falsehood, they were set in Parliament on the third of August. What other steps were taken to your knowledge?

Loh Pei Ying  35:50  
To my knowledge, prior to the fourth of October setting, I was not privy to what happened in between? Yeah. So basically, on my part, I didn't know anything, anything until after the fourth of October.

Edwin Tong  36:09  
To your mind. This would have been a very serious relevation revelation, of course. Yes. And the expectation is that the senior party members are to address the problem. Yes, correct. And so as a party Carter, and as an essay to miss Khan, who delivered the speech? Well, you're not surprised that we didn't. Nothing was heard from the Workers Party, at least publicly. After eighth of August.

Loh Pei Ying  36:37  
That thought did not cross my mind. But were you not surprised? Surprised that nothing was done? Yes. I don't know if surprised would be the right word I wouldn't used. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  36:54  
Well, were you expecting that something would be done? Because you told me earlier that in the hands of the senior party leaders, this is something that you expect them to work out? Yeah. Work out must mean in the context of having said something that is false in Parliament to have to fix it to redress it. Correct.

Loh Pei Ying  37:12  
I think on my part, I just trust that their judgment, whatever it was, yeah, like I didn't feel a need to follow up with them personally on it, because I felt they know and they should be wise to know what to do with the information.

Edwin Tong  37:29  
So besides Mr. Pritam Singh, Mr. Lim and Mr. Faisal mana who are aware by at the latest eighth of August, and I think in Mr. Singh's case earlier. Who else in a Workers Party knew that the anecdote was untrue?

Loh Pei Ying  37:49  
No one else to my knowledge, to your knowledge. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  37:53  
Well, Mr. Nava, new.

Loh Pei Ying  37:55  
Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Mr. Norton, the three MPs? Myself, yeah.

Edwin Tong  38:00  
Okay. To your knowledge was there. I mean, you may not have been involved, but you might have heard of it, discuss it with other people or been told about it. Were you aware of any meetings that took place between the party, senior party leaders, any of the activist volunteers Carter's in relation to this issue,

Loh Pei Ying  38:21  
not prior to the fourth of October, okay.

Edwin Tong  38:36  
Shortly after the speech was delivered on the third of August, we now know what happened in the few days that led up to the eighth of August, so I'm still around that period of time. On the one hand, and this is the context, on the one hand, you will concern about miscounts welfare, because of her own revelation to you as a friend. On the other hand, there is a serious issue in Parliament because it's a matter of serious gravamen. And there's also press speculation about the occasion and why Miss Kahn had chosen not to give further details. Would you have seen those press articles? I'm sure you will have come across them.

Loh Pei Ying  39:17  
Yeah, I guess I might have read one or two. I don't particularly take note. Yeah, like articles get sent back and forth, like all the time.

Edwin Tong  39:26  
Yes, there's so many nowadays. Yes. But that will have in the context of where you were, in the days following third of August. You must have been concerned. On the one hand, Miss Kahn is said this. She now has said some true she's told senior party leaders. The press is speculating as to why she is not prepared to give more details. You now know that she's in fact unable to give those details and unable to substantiate it. And so does the party leader. They know that she would have been unable to substantiate any of it because it is not true, it is false. In that context where you're not applying your mind, you know, to what next steps would be in this regard.

Loh Pei Ying  40:19  
Again, not really, because I, I was just, in my perspective, I'm a friend and also just, you know, member of the Workers Party and parliament is not necessarily a space or arena that I get myself involved in. And I felt that like, pretty much the two most senior members of the party knew and there was nothing further that I needed to do or worry about. Was I worried about Miss Hans personal welfare to some degree. Yes. Yeah. But beyond that. I didn't it didn't cross my mind.

Edwin Tong  40:55  
Is that so? If I can sort of summarize your position, you're saying that

because senior party members of the seated part, senior party leaders or the Workers Party, were aware, they knew it's untrue. You left it in their hands as to how to deal with it moving forward? That's correct. You would have expected that they will protect both the party position as well as miscounts position.

Loh Pei Ying  41:19  
I can I can give an answer to that. I had zero expectations. You had no expectation as in I just thought, okay, they have the information. You know, whatever they think is best. I trust them on that matter.

Edwin Tong  41:34  
So you, you, you trusted that they would do what's best for the party and Miss can.

Loh Pei Ying  41:45  
I, I also, I suppose if you want to list my expectations, I would trust that they will do what's best for the party mishaan And also for Parliament being truthful.

Edwin Tong  41:59  
Yeah. So that was your expectation? Yeah. Okay. No. Post eighth of August of the MS. Khan told you that she had a discussion with Mr. Pritam Singh, Mr. Faisal manava. Mr. William. And I told them that what she had said in Parliament, they are ignored was false. But other discussions that you have with Ms. Khan thereafter?

Loh Pei Ying  42:23  
You mean after eighth of August and before fourth October?

Edwin Tong  42:26  
Yes. We

Loh Pei Ying  42:30  
mean, silly things like my family issues.

Edwin Tong  42:32  
So I I'm sorry, this I don't mean to intrude into those. And I don't need you to explain those. I mean, in relation to the issue that we've just been discussing in relation to issue taken consequences

Loh Pei Ying  42:44  
now. Like we didn't have any further discussion on this matter, particularly.

Edwin Tong  42:48  
Was there any views that you exchanged with Mr. Nothern on this? No,

did Mr. Not not that can recall, Mr. Nothern. offer any views to miss Kahn? Not to my group chat? Not to my knowledge. But can you look through and if there are any good you also produce them to this GOP?

Loh Pei Ying  43:07  
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Can I write that though? Of course,

Edwin Tong  43:11  
please do. We will also try and maybe after we finish with the transcripts, try and make a note of one various request I've made.

Just so I remember. Did you say whether or not the thrust of what misconduct discussion with Mr. Singh, Mr. Manoj, and Miss Lim were on the group chat.

Loh Pei Ying  43:45  
As I said earlier, to my knowledge, what she had told them. I mean, she had discussed the speech, not just this particular antidote, but the speech in general. And she had told them the truth about what she had shared. What she exactly conveyed to them. I'm not privy to that conversation. Yeah. Okay.

Edwin Tong  44:09  
Were there any other form of communication besides WhatsApp or their emails with other forms of social media? Not to my knowledge, no telegram or emails? No, not to my knowledge. Okay. But perhaps you could have a look. And if there are any other such platforms, which deal with issues that we have been talking about? Yeah, we'll use them as well. Okay. Now, let's go to the fourth of October. Okay. The fourth of October, Miss Kahn spoke again in parliament on this issue. And what I thought I'll do is I'll just play an excerpt of the exchange because it's just easier to see it visually. Okay, so with Mr. Chairman's permission, may I just show a clip from the proceedings on the fourth of October? Yes, please.

Raeesah Khan  44:55  
Thank you, Minister for the clarification. My friend I said it did happen three years ago, and I haven't been successful getting in touch with the person that I accompanied. And, you know, with regards to confidentiality, I would prefer for it to remain that way. Thank you.

Shanmugam  45:15  
So I asked Which police station which one and the identities of the officers to the extent that Wiscon knows them

Tan Chuan-Jin:  45:30  
to facilitate the investigation,

Raeesah Khan  45:33  
thank you, I do not know the identity of the police officers,

Tan Chuan-Jin:  45:37  
questions on police station, state etc.

Raeesah Khan  45:42  
With regards to confidentiality with the survivor, I would not like to reveal any of this information. Thank you.

Shanmugam  45:47  
Okay. The police station confidential.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  45:55  
This is awesome asked me about the identity of individuals

Raeesah Khan  45:58  
understand, but with regards to confidentiality, I wouldn't like I will not be revealing that any other information. Thank you.

Shanmugam  46:11  
Perhaps speaker has the power to direct onsets since the maximum race and through user? I asked for directions to be given that we be told Which police station and the month and if not the date, at least a month in which police station?

Tan Chuan-Jin:  46:32  
Miss. I think that's a fair question. Would you like to respond? Are you putting those in position? The reason is that certain allegations have been made, which having affair and serious and the police I understand would like to follow up to check to make sure that they can rectify the situation. So any leads are useful without divulging the name of the vehicle.

Raeesah Khan  46:57  
Thank you. I still like to remain friends remain confidential. Thank you.

Shanmugam  47:03  
I don't understand this point about confidentiality. Can I ask through you, sir, for misconduct confirm that everything she has told us is accurate, that she did accompany such a person and such an incident did happen? Yes.

Edwin Tong  47:36  
I think we can stop the clip now. Just ask questions based on this. So Miss Lowe. Did you see this exchange at the time? The exchange took place?

Loh Pei Ying  47:47  
No, I did not see it at the time that the exchange. I learned of this. On the road here. I looked at this on the fourth of October through a Yahoo News article. Yeah, I went back to check. Okay.

Edwin Tong  48:01  
Now, let me take it step by step prior to the fourth of October, and you would have been aware that there was a parliamentary sitting on the fourth of October.

Loh Pei Ying  48:10  
Actually, I wasn't aware. Yeah, I wasn't really following the schedule.

Edwin Tong  48:15  
You're aware that there is a monthly parliamentary study? Yes, I'm aware. Was there any discussion on what Miss Khan would say if this issue came up? Again? Not with me? Not with you. Are you aware Miss can discuss it with anyone else?

Loh Pei Ying  48:34  
This is information that I have that was shared with me after the fourth of October. I believe she met Mr. Pritam Singh the day before,

Edwin Tong  48:43  
the day before the fourth of October. That's right. All right. Can you describe the gist of that discussion?

Loh Pei Ying  48:53  
Okay. She did it. I can't recall if she's the one to tell me this. But definitely I know, in a subsequent meeting that I had with Mr. Pritam Singh, in person, his place that he shared with me, he had met her the day before, and he had told her that he has a feeling this might come up. And I don't know the full details of what he said to her. But he shared with me that he said, I will not judge you.

Edwin Tong  49:26  
He shared with you and said I will not judge you to you,

Loh Pei Ying  49:30  
too. Miss Raisa have to miss can

Edwin Tong  49:34  
come to this in a moment. But let's just focus on your knowledge that prior to fourth of October, there was a meeting between Miss Khan and Mr. Singh. Yes, let's focus on it because you're saying that there's a subsequent occasion where you had direct knowledge because you had Mr. Singh's house discussing the issue. So prior to the fourth of October Miss Khan I must have told you or send you a text to inform you that she had discussed it with Mr. Singh. Sorry, prior to what, again prior to the fourth of October? No, she didn't know I'm what I'm saying that you were aware, subsequently that prior to the fourth of October, she had discussed it with Mr. Singh. Yes. So sometime before fourth of October, she and Mr. Singh discussed. Yes, what response she should give if this came up in Parliament.

Loh Pei Ying  50:27  
I don't know if they discuss what response she should give. I as I said, it was relayed to me that they had a conversation. And that conversation was that he had a feeling that she will be pressed about this issue again. And his response to that was that he will not judge, Miss Raeesah Khan.

Edwin Tong  50:50  
But you see in the context of an issue, and let me again, give you the circumstances, there was a very serious issue that had been raised post third of August. Yes, we have gone through that. And we are now in a scenario where the Leader of the Opposition Leader of the Workers Party, is expecting that this issue will be raised again in Parliament. Yes. And so in the context of any discussion that he must have had, which he had with Miss Khan, one of the key questions that would arise would be what her response ought to be. Yeah, correct.

Loh Pei Ying  51:25  
I would imagine so yes.

Edwin Tong  51:26  
And you would have heard from misconduct. She did have such a discussion with Mr. Singh prior to fourth of October? Yes. Are you aware Mr. Khan had a discussion with anyone else? Besides Mr. Singh? Not? Not any other member of parliament? Not to my knowledge, any activist or volunteers? Not to my knowledge with Mr. Nothern?

Loh Pei Ying  51:50  
No, not to my knowledge.

Edwin Tong  51:51  
Okay. When you saw this response that she gave in Parliament, were you surprised?

Loh Pei Ying  52:01  
I don't think I was surprised. Surprised is not the word I will use. Was I scared for her? Yes.

Edwin Tong  52:09  
And you must have been scared because this is completely at odds with what you know the truth to be correct. And you would have expected that there ought to have been a proper resolution of this by coming clean and admitting that it was wrong. And false.

Loh Pei Ying  52:25  
Maybe I can give my my full thoughts on the matter. You can

Edwin Tong  52:29  
answer my question, and then you can elaborate. I'm just asking what your expectation would have been?

Loh Pei Ying  52:34  
Yeah, I'm I can't answer that. Because it didn't occur to me, like Miss Han. And Mr. Singh had a feeling I mean, they had that conversation that she might be pressed, but I didn't. So I had no, I thought it was done. I didn't think that it will come up again. So

Edwin Tong  52:51  
I understand. I'm just asking you, because see, you're telling us that you didn't know that there was going to be a discourse in Parliament. Right, right. Yeah. And you saw it secondhand, as it were later in the day. But having seen it, knowing what you knew, and being involved in discussions with Miss Kahn, with Mr. Nothern, knowing that she has disclosed this to senior party leaders, Mr. Faisal mana Mr. Pritam Singh and Mr. Lim. And knowing the truth of the matter, and knowing that the anecdote could not be substantiated. My question is, will you not? Perhaps not surprises since you may not like that word, but were you not at least taken aback that that position, on several occasions, quite strident, and quite confident that everything that she had said happened happened? Well, you're not taken aback.

Loh Pei Ying  53:50  
I suppose I was shocked. But my primary feeling was worry and feel. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  53:59  
And you worry you worried and feared because you knew, or you appreciated the gravity of the situation Correct. To have lied once in Parliament, and then repeated the lie again? months later? Correct. Correct. Yeah. And your expectation is that

perhaps is not let me rephrase this, your advice to Miss Khan would have been to own up to this and deal with the issue and not perpetuate the falsehood, correct?

Loh Pei Ying  54:36  
Yes. And actually, when I read the news, I had told her my personal advice to her was to tell the CBC

Edwin Tong  54:42  
Elda CBC the truth, yes, and that she should go to Parliament to tell the truth. I didn't go that farther. But that must be the natural consequence. I

Loh Pei Ying  54:53  
mean, telling the CC will necessitate that the information will come to public knowledge.

Edwin Tong  54:57  
Yes, and in fact, she did tell the key members of the CS Mr. Singh misma Miss Lim and Mr. Manoj?

Loh Pei Ying  55:03  
Yes. But my message was to tell the whole CEC?

Edwin Tong  55:08  
Well, what you do know is that at least those three were aware correct whether there were anyone else on the CEC who was aware you're not so sure. Yeah, right. You mentioned that sometime subsequent to the fourth of October, you then met with Mr. Pritam Singh at his house. Correct? What date was this?

Loh Pei Ying  55:30  
12th of October.

Edwin Tong  55:33  
Can you describe how this meeting came to be set up?

Loh Pei Ying  55:36  
I had reached out to him.

Edwin Tong  55:39  
How did you reach out to him on WhatsApp? Can you tell us the gist of the discussion on WhatsApp?

Loh Pei Ying  55:45  
I just said, hyper DOM. I sent you this and I would like to meet you to discuss basically what had transpired.

Edwin Tong  55:55  
And what was his response? He said,

Loh Pei Ying  55:57  
Okay. He gave me his address.

Edwin Tong  56:02  
Okay. And can you tell us whether prior to the meeting yourself and yudishe had any prior discussion, you must have had for you to agree to go to meeting together? Right.

Loh Pei Ying  56:15  
Yeah. So on the early on the 12th of October, I believe Miss Han phoned me. And I mean, if I recall correctly, I can't. I mean, a lot of things has happened. And so she phoned me to share with me that I think she was there was a decision for her to make the statement to clarify with parliament, and my request to meet with Mr. Pritam. Singh was to confirm how it should take place. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  56:47  
When you saw the statement that she gave in Parliament on the fourth of October, and knowing what you knew at that point in time, were you not surprised that Mr. Singh would sit in Parliament, along with Miss Ma, Ms. Lim and Mr. Mana and allow Ms. Khan, to perpetuate and repeat the lies several times.

Loh Pei Ying  57:13  
I was, maybe I can, again, give a fuller explanation of my thoughts. At that moment, my primary concern was fear and worry. For both Miss Han and the party. It was only much later when I had more time to think about it that I felt that he should have spoken up.

Edwin Tong  57:33  
And why do you think he should have spoken them?

Loh Pei Ying  57:36  
Because he still need off the opposition and of the Workers Party? is the right thing to do.

Edwin Tong  57:50  
When you saw the exchange on the fourth of October, does it not suggest to you that because you you subsequently knew that there was a prior discussion between Miss Khan and Mr. Singh. You would have thought that this was the agreed position between Miss Khan and Mr. Singh, correct?

Loh Pei Ying  58:20  
I am not sure how to answer that, because as I said, I didn't know the setting was happening. And I didn't know she would be pressed again. And I didn't know that they had a conversation prior. Okay. Yeah,

Edwin Tong  58:33  
that's fair enough, because you knew this only later. Now that you know what you do, you know, would it not be a fair assumption that the meeting prior to fourth of October between Mr. Singh and Miss Kahn was to settle the terms of what she would say if she stressed? Yeah, we expected would happen?

Loh Pei Ying  58:49  
Yeah, I would imagine that they should have discussed the best way to handle it.

Edwin Tong  58:53  
And so will you taken aback or surprised that this was the agreed position with the party leader in Parliament?

Loh Pei Ying  59:01  
I mean, I knew it wasn't the agreed position to take because Mr. Singh had left the choice up to her with his words of I will not judge you,

Edwin Tong  59:09  
but certainly Mr. Singh, by the time knew what the true position was. And he was present in Parliament when those falsehoods continued to be perpetrated. Correct. Okay. As a senior party member and Academy member, were you not surprised?

Loh Pei Ying  59:26  
I was not surprised by I was disappointed.

Edwin Tong  59:29  
What do you think Miss Khan's role in that was because as I explained at the start, we what we need to do as a Corp is to assess her culpability, relative culpability, and what are the important points for us to consider is the extent to which she made her own decisions, or she had sought the counsel or advice of senior party leaders. So in that context, do you think this is something that Miss can went along with was told to do, or decided on her own volition? To continue to lie in Parliament,

Loh Pei Ying  1:00:02  
I, I can I can't really give an answer that I really don't know.

Edwin Tong  1:00:09  
I'm asking you to make a judgement based on the fact that not just Are you Mrs. Cons essay, but a friend, someone who knows her reasonably well. Okay. And with whom she obviously confides in because you and Mr. Northern, besides her family will be the only ones she confided with in.

Loh Pei Ying  1:00:28  
Yeah. I think given that this hon. And Mr. Singh's experience with politics is very different. Considering Mr. Singh is more seasoned, that she wouldn't have relied on him to some extent for clarity and direction. And that, because he said, I will not judge, you might have given her the false sense that it was alright. To not come clean.

Edwin Tong  1:01:03  
Yeah, this phrase, I will not judge you. I will not judge you was intended to convey a sense of assurance to Miss Khan, right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:01:12  
I don't know. Like how it will sit. Yeah. So I

Edwin Tong  1:01:17  
am asking you from the perspective of you having heard from Miss Khan, who reported the conversation to you,

Loh Pei Ying  1:01:22  
Actually, it was Mr. Singh, who shared with me the conversation

Edwin Tong  1:01:25  
What was your takeaway since you heard directly from him?

Loh Pei Ying  1:01:29  
I suppose he was implying that he gave her the choice. Yeah. And that she had then acted independently thereafter

Edwin Tong  1:01:38  
this was he's he's implying. Yeah. But your expectation is that as a senior party leader, as you said, he is more seasoned, and will be expected to guide her in that process. Correct. So on the 12th of October, coming back to this meeting, you and your, Yudhishthra and yourself had arranged to meet with Mr. Singh? Correct. was Miss Kahn present? No. What time was this meeting?

Loh Pei Ying  1:02:04  
It was late at night, I think around eight or 9pm.

Edwin Tong  1:02:11  
Can you as far as you can recall, recount the meeting to us? What happened? who said what, and what was discussed?

Loh Pei Ying  1:02:22  
It was a fairly long meeting. So I won't be able to recall everything by can give you the gist. The gist was to, discuss, if, what will happen after she informs Parliament of the truth. Meaning, how she should say the truth. And procedurally what I would be involved in, and what Mr. nadda would be involved in day after such as, for me, on my part, maintaining coupon open communications with residents and volunteers about the matter, because we knew that everyone would be shocked. And I missed another part, too, to help maintain any social media sort of messages and things like that, because we know she would receive a lot of messages thereafter. So he was brought in to, you know, help manage that, I suppose. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:03:19  
Did you discuss how you will come across the points in Parliament to clarify her position?

Loh Pei Ying  1:03:27  
Yeah, there was a there was a discussion of how she should tell the truth and to what extent of personal information she should reveal. So definitely, the consensus was that she should tell the truth, but that she had lied. But we were we we were not sure if she should share that personal anecdote of her being sexual assault survivor

Edwin Tong  1:03:48  
herself. At any point in this meeting that the meeting discuss why she could not or should not have told the truth earlier. I mean, after all, this is barely a week after the last sitting.

Loh Pei Ying  1:04:00  
So you mean why she didn't say the truth when pressed on the fourth of October, October? No, we didn't discuss that.

Edwin Tong  1:04:07  
You didn't discuss that? Because you, you and Mr. Nothern, I presume had assumed that this was something that was discussed between Mr. Singh and Miss Kahn?

Loh Pei Ying  1:04:14  
No, I think we didn't discuss it because it was just like water under the bridge, like happened during the

Edwin Tong  1:04:19  
Okay. Okay. Yes, I can understand that. What else was discussed at this meeting? For instance, did you have some points? Was there a draft? No, no, there was no draft. Did you take notes as to what was discussed? And no, we didn't take notes.

Loh Pei Ying  1:04:37  
It was just a discussion of you know. I mean, let me give a bit more context as well. When I went to the meeting. My primary concern as her friend was to make sure that her mental well being was protected, protected. And understandably, everything that has transpired is a very stressful event for Ms. Han. Given that she was a victim of sexual assault as well, I was worried that a revelation like this to the public would be very hard for her to bear. And I had gone to that meeting with, you know, the intention of working things in a way that she could be protector as much as possible.

Edwin Tong  1:05:26  
At the meeting, can you give me a gist of what Mr. Singh said, his approach his thinking and what he told her to do or what advice he gave her, and to yourself and Mr. Another?

Loh Pei Ying  1:05:37  
Yeah, his advice to give to her was that she needed to tell the truth. And I mean, he was very sure of that law, but he wasn't sure if also if she should review the circumstances of her sexual assault. And then, I mean, it revolves largely around that. Yeah, I can't recall. Exactly like the specifics of our conversation.

Edwin Tong  1:06:10  
After this meeting. Did you share your thoughts and what have transpired in the meeting with Miss Kahn?

Loh Pei Ying  1:06:20  
Sorry, I'm trying to recall. I think briefly, yeah, briefly,

Edwin Tong  1:06:27  
it, it must have been so because you're here discussing. Again, in context. It is now, two and a half months since she first gave a false anecdote in Parliament. Since then, she has faced several questions from the media. There has been a further questioning in Parliament, a very direct one, as you can see here. And thereafter, in the aftermath of October, the fourth of October sitting, there were even more focus on why she could not come with details. Now, on a turbo October, you're discussing costs, which is diametrically opposite to everything she had done previously. Right. She is not present at a meeting. Yeah. So it would have been natural for you or Mr. Nothern, or both, to have discussed these details with you, because how would you know that she would now do this?

Loh Pei Ying  1:07:22  
Yeah. I can't remember how we discussed it with her. I think we informed her in some way or another that. That we are here to help her, basically, me and Mr. Nandan,

Edwin Tong  1:07:35  
but you must have narrated to her what? transpired? What was agreed not everything. Yeah. So what what did you tell her?

Loh Pei Ying  1:07:43  
I told her that. Yeah, it was frightening, like, it's the right thing to do. I think. Maybe let me just rewind a little bit. I think when she called me on the 12th of October to tell me that she was going to tell Parliament of the truth, there was a degree of worry on her part of how obviously, you know how it will affect her thereafter, which is why I went to seek Mr. Singh's confirmation of how it will take place so that things can be put in place to ensure her mental well being, as in because it would be really bad. So, you know, to make sure that an issue is not so bad, you know, after. So, I, when, after we had a discussion with Mr. Singh, I believe we conveyed to her that, you know, okay, it's the right thing to do, and we will support you in this endeavor. And that support, as I mentioned, refers specifically to me, you know, ensuring that communications remained open with volunteers and volunteers and residents, and all Mr. Say, or Mr. Nothern spot to ensure that, you know, there was someone looking after her social media accounts after that.

Edwin Tong  1:09:11  
Okay, I understand this. So, would you say that after the 12th of October, there was a consensus that she would now make a clarification in Parliament? Correct. Did you start to put together the terms of what she would say, discuss it with her.

Loh Pei Ying  1:09:35  
mishaan draft her own statement by Mr. Norton. And I did sort of, you know, help the review and assist in again, polishing grandma clarity. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:09:48  
Are you aware of anyone else? Give Miss Kahn comments on the draft.

Loh Pei Ying  1:09:53  
Yes, I'm aware.

Edwin Tong  1:09:54  
Can you tell us who gave comments to her?

Loh Pei Ying  1:09:58  
There were many There were not many, but there were a few versions of this draft before the final statement. And I believe, Mr. Singh minister, well, I'm not sure about Mr. Faisal Milan, but definitely miss Sylvia Lim and Mr. Singh had given her comments.

Edwin Tong  1:10:15  
What about the two MPs? Who moved the motion? Miss her and Mr. Pereira?

Loh Pei Ying  1:10:19  
They were not. They were not aware of what's going on at this point.

Edwin Tong  1:10:24  
To your knowledge, to my knowledge. What was some of the input given by Mr. Singh Muslim? And perhaps Mr. Manoj, can you give us the gist?

Loh Pei Ying  1:10:41  
I can recall exactly. I was only present for their comments on one part of like, one occasion of the draft. And I think there was a discussion of, you know, how much personal information she should reveal. Yeah. Like the details of a sexual assault? Yeah,

Edwin Tong  1:11:12  
let me let me tell you where I'm coming from on this so that you can understand the angle I'm taking. I like to understand the evolution of this draft, beginning from the 12th of October, your discussions, which obviously, according to your evidence, so far, which I understand was the genesis of what eventually transpired in Parliament on the first of November. So there's roughly a two and a half week window. So I'm trying to understand the evolution of the draft. And you said that there were few versions of the draft, we exchanged several people giving comments to it. So I like as far as possible for you to track for me to evolution, what was initially agreed, what was added in or removed? How, what were the discussions on this? And how eventually became the version that we saw on first,

Loh Pei Ying  1:11:58  
I can't Admittedly, I cannot remember everything. And I don't know what was removed or added. But I think it was really almost kind of like rearranging paragraphs of like, what should come first and things like that. So I don't recall my partner was like major subtractions. It was sort of redacting, not redacting. Sorry, that's the wrong word, removing parts where, for example, she would describe why she did not report her own sexual assault when she was younger. Yeah, so we removed a lot of, you know, sort of the personal reasons for why she lied. In terms of her logic and explanation, I mean, you know, our edits were primarily for legibility, clarity, and, again, you know, ensuring that there was a message to think you tell the lie and cleaning the lie as truthfully as possible and with as much clarity as possible, I guess. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:13:06  
Was there a discussion on the reasons why she told the lie?

Loh Pei Ying  1:13:14  
The reason was always the one that she shared, which is, you know, she didn't want to review but she was part of the support group. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:13:25  
Let me ask for the club to play that. Trunk trunk excerpt of the proceedings on the first of November and then I'll ask you some questions about okay, that statement. Could the club assist me please?

Tan Chuan-Jin:  1:14:01  
While we're waiting for that, maybe I just asked in terms of what was the form in which these exchanges were taking place? Was it WhatsApp was it through email

Loh Pei Ying  1:14:10  
for the drafts specifically, it was in person.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  1:14:15  
Meaning, hardcopy, and they were printed copies and and you would have some of these copies still? No,

Loh Pei Ying  1:14:22  
I don't have any of them.

Raeesah Khan  1:14:24  
I'm making this apology today.

Edwin Tong  1:14:29  
Can you sorry. I like to start with Miss Kahn statement. She made a brief statement before she was asked some questions by leader.

Raeesah Khan  1:14:42  
On the third of August, I saw in this house on emotion on empowering women. During my speech, I had shared an anecdote of a survivor of sexual assault. I was not present with the survivor And the police station as I described, the anecdote was shared by the survivor in a woman support group for women, which I was a part of. I do not share that part of the group, as I did not have the courage to publicly admit that I was part of it. I attended the support group because I myself am a survivor of sexual assault. I was sexually assaulted when I was 18. Studying abroad, that assault has traumatized me. To this day. The fear and shame accompanying sexual assault is extreme and long lasting, as it has been, and still is for me. Unlike the survivor whose anecdote I shared in this house, I did not have the courage to report my own assault. Yet, as a survivor, I wanted so deeply to speak up and also shared their account I had heard my speaking on the motion without revealing my own private experience. I should not have shared this virus anecdote without her consent, nor should I have said that I accompanied her to the police station when I did not. It was wrong me to do so. to survivors of sexual violence, I hope that this does not deter you from recording your assaults. And sharing an anecdote without consent, I disregarded the principle of consent in discussions around survivors consent and sexual assault. As a survivor myself, I feel this failure deeply. It is important for me to take responsibility for my actions, from my error of judgment, and to set the record straight. I wish to correct the record by retracting the anecdote that I share on the third of August. And I wish to apologize to the Singapore Police Force. Okay, we

Edwin Tong  1:17:18  
can stop the several other exchanges and I thought, rather than played here, take time, I will get a hard copy to you so that you have a reference point, in case you can't remember what was exchanged between herself and the leader. So could the club please give to miss low copies of the extracts from the first of November? While waiting for that, Miss low, I assume that this would have been one occasion where you watch this life.

Loh Pei Ying  1:17:49  
Hilariously, actually, I didn't because something happened in the office and I needed to rush the office.

Edwin Tong  1:17:56  
But you would have watched it sometime shortly after I assume

Loh Pei Ying  1:17:59  
I managed to rush home in time to only watch the part where this Indrani Raja question to

Edwin Tong  1:18:06  
see so not the initial statement, but the subsequent exchange? Yeah, would you not have before you so you would have seen it just this is about a month ago. But I put a record here so that you can refresh yourself. Now. If you follow a few lines from where we stopped the video, you will see that the exchange between Miss Miss Kahn and the leader, she confirmed that she had in fact not gone down to the police station. And that's not true. Right. Yeah. And the part about accompanying the police, the survivor, the police station, and what the member allegedly saw was also untrue. Right. Yeah. And further down. Miss Kahn accepted that the statement that the first person that I had accompany, which was her response later in the day on the third of August was also untrue, correct? Yeah. And finally, we look further down the page at page three. Miss can confirm that everything she when she was asked by Mr. Shanmugam, that everything she had told us is accurate data company such a person and such a incident had happened. And an answer of yes, at on that occasion was untrue, right. Yeah. Now would you accept that I can show you the relevant portion of the rest of the transcript. But would you accept that there would be no need to refer to the question of the support her own attendance at a support group to make the point that she wanted to?

Loh Pei Ying  1:19:47  
Yes, I suppose there was no need to

Edwin Tong  1:19:50  
miss Carter self accepted that in the course of further discussed between herself and the leader, right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:19:56  
Sign me.

Edwin Tong  1:19:58  
Sure. Let me refer you to page four and we look at page four, you see somewhere Brown, the first 1/3. Miss Roger says, I do completely empathize with the reason. All I'm asking is this, and I'm not sure I had a response. My question was simply, it would have been possible to tell the story without the untruths, and without referring to the survivors group would remember agree. Miss Kahn says, Sorry. So if I was unclear, I apologize. Yes, I do feel every bit possible. So she accept that it's possible to make the speech make the same points, but without going into the support group. Further down the page. You, in fact, over the next page at page five, Mr. You will see in the middle misconcept. One of the principles of being in a woman support group is that the details should remain confidential. You see that? Yeah. Miss Rogers, and goes on to say a few lines down from there, that she did not want to disclose because of confidentiality, but based on what the member has just said, actually, by that time, because the story had already been recounted, it means the member had already breached a confidentiality to the survivor. Is that not correct? miscounts? Answer? That is correct. Yes. So confidentiality is also not a reason for having put up the false anecdote. Would you agree? Meaning, if you follow the exchange between Miss Kahn and Miss Raja, the fact of the matter is that the moment you describe, and she described as a 35, year old, three years ago, and so on, the moment you describe that occasion, that's a breach of the confidentiality already, which is kind of accepted. Right. So actually, confidentiality was not a reason for having given a false anecdote. Would you accept?

Loh Pei Ying  1:22:13  
I think there are varying degrees of competent confidentiality. Sorry, it's a long word. And I think well, now we understand that what that means is not you know, including not revealing, you know, details of what was shared in that support group, I suppose, without providing personal information. Just saying that, you know, this happened. Somebody went to a police station this happened was like, but you know, you know, alright, I guess I don't know,

Edwin Tong  1:22:46  
but I think you see, Miss Kahn accepted it. And I think it is fairly common as a standard when it comes to mutual support groups in particular, that even mentioning this would be a breach of confidentiality, and I think Miss Kahn agreed with that. So on that basis that NASCAR had agreed with that. Would you not agree that actually confidentiality was no excuse? Not a reason for giving the false anecdote? Reason,

Loh Pei Ying  1:23:17  
right. I don't know how to respond to this question.

Edwin Tong  1:23:21  
If if I come and say that, well, because of confidentiality, I had to lie. When in fact, you had already breached a confidentiality. There would be what would be a it would be a circular argument. Right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:23:36  
Yeah, I think there's a slight separation here. Prior to, you know, knowing that she had lied, confidentiality of protecting the victim to me, is a good reason. Yeah, to you. But yeah, yeah. There are thereafter I don't think it was mytheresa Hands intention to say that she had lied because of confidential reasons. She had lied to keep her identity as a sexual assault victim.

Edwin Tong  1:24:10  
Private. Yes. But as you as we agreed on that earlier, that fact may not have been disclosed, it could remain private, and still misconduct remain the same points that she had agreed to herself. Yeah. Right. So where I'm coming from is low is that, in fact, if you look at what we've seen on the screen earlier, the additional reasons which explain or seek to explain away why she gave the false anecdote. They don't hold water, right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:24:46  
I personally disagree. My perspective and this was something we also I mean, I shared with her personally at some point, that it was important that in her statement, she made known her personal anecdote to some small degree. Because it is the thing that people, often this bullying, sexual assault survivors, and without sharing the experience, her lie would seem really, really bad, for lack of a better word. And the repercussions is not so much on her by on other sexual assault victims,

Edwin Tong  1:25:36  
and which is why in this case, instead of sharing her own story to make the speech in Parliament more believable, she made up a story about accompanying a victim. And the purpose of doing that was to lend believability and credibility to the account. Right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:25:54  
I mean, I, I can't answer that for why she lied. I mean, she has her own reasons, you know,

Edwin Tong  1:25:59  
I mean, looking at it with your own lens. That would have been the objectively that would have been the reason for giving that account,

Loh Pei Ying  1:26:07  
there would have been a consequence. Yeah, I don't know if it was a reason.

Edwin Tong  1:26:12  
Okay. So you accepted the consequence of someone listening to a speech reading a speech with a personal anecdote? Yeah. Which in this case was a false one. Yeah. would get the impression that this is a more credible story, correct? Right. Yes.

Loh Pei Ying  1:26:26  
I agree to that.

Edwin Tong  1:26:29  
Now, early on, Mr. Chairman, asked if the drafts were exchanged in copies, which you still have, do you still

Loh Pei Ying  1:26:35  
have them? No, I don't have any of them. Who would have them? mishaan,

Edwin Tong  1:26:39  
this guy would have them. She would have kept the various versions. Exchange? I'm not sure if she kept it. Well, any of these drafts circulated by email. No, not too not, not to my knowledge. That is not to you, Ghana. They may have been to other people. Yeah, maybe. So just to be clear, can you tell me who was involved in in reviewing the draft besides Mr. Singh? Muslim yourself? Miss Kahn? Was Mr. Nothern. involved? Yeah, Mr. Anonymous, who else was involved? Not to my knowledge. Were any out the other senior members of WP involved? No. I mean, not to your knowledge, not Not

Loh Pei Ying  1:27:19  
to my knowledge, but sometime when I guess there was a I mean, I wasn't part of this conversation. But I assume at some point, there was a informing of patinas, like the CDC, and then the stimulus mean.

Edwin Tong  1:27:37  
So you would expect that the statement was principally drafted and commented upon by a few people would get the clearance and buy in of the of the CC? I'm not sure about that. You're not sure? Yeah. Is that what you expected?

Loh Pei Ying  1:27:50  
I don't expect that. Yeah, I think they would have been informed that she would be coming clean. But I don't I can't I don't know. You know, they saw a copy of that. So Steven,

Edwin Tong  1:27:59  
they will know what she would be planning to do to clean but may not know the specific details of what will be in the statement. Okay. But you do know that Mr. Singh, and Mr. Lim, we're aware. And we're giving comments and we're part of the drafting process.

Loh Pei Ying  1:28:13  
Yeah, they were part of the drafting process. They are giving comments now. Yeah. But I don't think they like actually typed in the words. That's all mishaan.

Edwin Tong  1:28:23  
Okay. All right. But you know, you can shape and put a direction to it even type in the words. Right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:28:30  
Yeah. So I wouldn't use the term drafting.

Edwin Tong  1:28:33  
Okay. Influencing? Yeah. Okay. Now, in this period of time. And I'm still at a tough October. Okay. There's about two and a half weeks before the first of November, which is where we saw the speech. Yeah. What was the discussion that you had with Miss Kahn?

Loh Pei Ying  1:28:55  
Predominantly just about the statement. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, just about her MPs, that's all. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:29:03  
Were there any interactions that you had with anyone else from the WP? No. on this issue? No, no, not at all. Would you be able to check your phone for messages to see that any other communications that you might have had?

Loh Pei Ying  1:29:19  
Yeah, I will. Yeah, but I'm quite sure on that. Yeah. Because he was obviously very serious. And he wanted to, you know, okay, keep it contained.

Edwin Tong  1:29:29  
So, those occasions where you exchanged a draft Earlier you told speaker, Mr. Chairman, that this is in hardcopy. And you also told me that on the 12th of October, there were no drafts yet. Yeah. So obviously, sometime between 12 October and November, you must have met together again to discuss the draft. Right, since you said it's not an email. Yeah. So can you describe that to me, please, where did you meet? Who did you meet? What dates how many times what was discussed?

Loh Pei Ying  1:29:56  
Okay. I can't, I don't write this down. For some reason I can't remember. I can't remember exactly when we met but I was part of one meeting at Workers Party headquarters. And people present will pull on my really shed. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:30:11  
Just for the record is Mr. C. Miss Lee

Loh Pei Ying  1:30:13  
Mr. Singh, miss them miss Nadal myself, Miss Han?

Edwin Tong  1:30:18  
What did was this meeting be? I can't remember. But sometime in the intervening period between October and November, yeah. Okay. There would have been WhatsApp discussions to set up the meeting right to explain that there was a draft that was done.

Loh Pei Ying  1:30:33  
Yeah. I was informed by Mr. Singh. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:30:37  
So you have a chat with him as well. Yes. Would you be able to produce that? Yeah. to any of the issues concerning the CRP, anything arising from or related to the speech? There was many parliament on it? I mean,

Loh Pei Ying  1:30:49  
didn't discuss on text. Yeah, the details.

Edwin Tong  1:30:54  
You all to the extent that you find anything, can you please. Okay, what's the copy? This besides this meeting, were there any other meetings?

Loh Pei Ying  1:31:03  
Not to my knowledge.

Edwin Tong  1:31:05  
So you had one meeting to discuss the draft? Yeah. And it was at that meeting that views were exchanged? Yeah. Were they exchanged verbally? Or did someone markup the drafts?

Loh Pei Ying  1:31:17  
Bernie, verbally? Yeah,

Edwin Tong  1:31:20  
can you? I know, it's about six weeks ago, but can you try to recall actually is less than six weeks ago was about maybe four months ago. Can you try and recall who said what, at the meeting?

Loh Pei Ying  1:31:44  
I think in that meeting, there was a discussion. I think Miss Han had short, her family. version of the draft. And I think they were very concerned. So there was a lot of discussion on her family that day. Yeah, can you?

Edwin Tong  1:32:11  
Because just have that concern? And

Loh Pei Ying  1:32:13  
yeah, because I guess even at that, to my knowledge that even at the 12th of October, her parents did not know, of the truth and of her own sexual assault. So it was like a lot of a lot of things to take in for them. Yeah. So her parents were very upset. On various reasons, the fact that she liked the fact that she was sexually assaulted the fact that she died, and then you know, that she was going to have to tell everything to Parliament. So they were very, very concerned and a lot of the discussions was how can we want her statement to ensure her parents were respected? And to allay their concerns? Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:32:59  
Well, was her family aware of what had been discussed on a 12th of October and the eventual position taken by by Miss Kahn and Mr. Singh? Aware of aware of what she plans to do at the next sitting of Parliament?

Loh Pei Ying  1:33:19  
I don't know when they were made aware. Exactly. I can't recall. But the the new definitely before she made the statements in the new law. Yeah. So that meeting was to, you know, kind of go over their concerns, I suppose. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:33:43  
Their concerns related to what drafting issues? Or was it a question of whether this should have been done at all in broad direction? Or is it what kind of points to be raised?

Loh Pei Ying  1:33:57  
I think what kinds of points should be raised? Yeah. I can recall.

Edwin Tong  1:34:04  
Your senses that the family would have been agreeable to her coming clean in Parliament to speak the truth.

Loh Pei Ying  1:34:14  
I don't know exactly what was exchanged between her and her family members. But I think what I understood was that her family was very worried on again also like her well being

Edwin Tong  1:34:27  
are you waiting for family met with or spoke to or communicate with any members of the Workers Party?

Loh Pei Ying  1:34:32  
Not to my knowledge.

Edwin Tong  1:34:35  
Now, we were in a process of going through what was discussed at the meeting on the Forgot if you gave me a date, you said a few days after the top of October, right?

Loh Pei Ying  1:34:46  
I don't know if it was a few days. I can I genuinely cannot remember.

Edwin Tong  1:34:51  
Yeah, it was muddy HQ. And we were going through what was the individual responses by each person use it the concerns of the family members took quite a bit of time. Yeah. Besides this, were there any other comments that you can remember?

Loh Pei Ying  1:35:09  
As I said, the contents of the conversation was permanently around her family's concerns. To what degree of you know how much she should explain why she lied. You know, like, as I said, like why she didn't report her own sexual assault, you know? And do.

Edwin Tong  1:35:31  
Did anyone else in the Workers Party who was present Mr. Singh, Miss Miss limb, or Mr. Nothern? Talk about the two reasons that she gave on confidentiality, and also on the mutual support group. The very two reasons that she agreed with Miss Miss Rogers subsequently, were not factors which would have mattered. Like I showed you them, I showed you those times.

Loh Pei Ying  1:36:00  
Yeah. I understand just thinking if they did. I don't think they mentioned specifically confidentiality. I think, yeah. I can recall, if they did.

Edwin Tong  1:36:36  
You see, to just assist you a little bit. Confidentiality could not have been a new point at a point in time. Because it was in fact, the core of misconduct answers on I understand. Yeah. So confidentiality could not have been a new reason. And in fact, it was used as a reason for not going to further details on the fourth of October, which, if you remember, Miss Lowe was took place after Miss Kahn and Mr. Singh had a discussion on the parliamentary setting and the expectation that this issue would come up. Right. So that's the context. And therefore, I'm assuming for the time being that Mr. Singh, Miss Kahn knew that confidentiality will be used as one reason or one excuse on the fourth of October for not disclosing further details. And that seemed to have carried through to the first of November meeting. first of November speech, brother. Yeah. Trying to ask you if you can remember any discussions along this vein.

Loh Pei Ying  1:37:43  
So. Okay, you're asking if Mr. Singh or any other party members or leaders had requested that the confidentiality reason be addressed in his statement is that, well,

Edwin Tong  1:37:55  
not so much to do anything about it?

Loh Pei Ying  1:37:59  
I don't I mean, I can recall, I don't think so.

Edwin Tong  1:38:03  
Okay, perhaps if we looked at the drafts that have been revised over time, the evolution of the draft? I mean, would you say Miss Kahn has, perhaps that would shed some light?

Loh Pei Ying  1:38:14  
Yeah. But that after that meeting, it had evolved a bit more, and I was not part of those. Like, men, I saw her speech. I was, I mean, it was like new to me. Yeah. Like, isn't, it didn't change the VLE. Bad? You know, I was like, Okay, here's the final

Edwin Tong  1:38:33  
parts of it, which has been changed subsequent to your involvement? Yeah. Which you saw only for the first time on, on the first of November. Okay. Now, at any point in time between the 12th of October when you decided, or you had a meeting with Mr. Singh, to complain, how to deal with it. And if you remember, you said that prior to that meeting, there was a call that your discussion that you had with Miss Kahn about her coming to Parliament to complain at any point in time between that, and the first of November. Was there any discussion to your knowledge about what Workers Party would do? Consequent upon her giving the statement on the first of November?

Loh Pei Ying  1:39:16  
What the Workers Party would do, as in like, put out a statement

Edwin Tong  1:39:19  
or a statement set up a disciplinary inquiry? No. Nothing whatsoever? No. In fact, what were the words you said Mr. Singh said to you, about Miska. On the fourth of night after the know you, you mentioned that Mr. Singh, told you that he will not judge Miss Kahn.

Loh Pei Ying  1:39:43  
Yeah, that was on the 12th of October. Yes. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:39:47  
So that I think we only agreed, you took as a sign that that was reassuring, right? prepared, let her do as she thinks appropriate.

Loh Pei Ying  1:40:04  
I mean, I will assume he is prepared if he, if he said that to her. Meaning, I mean, you say that with knowledge that it could go either way, right?

Edwin Tong  1:40:17  
Yes. But it's also saying that with the knowledge that as early as a few days after this statement was made, he was aware that it was false.

Loh Pei Ying  1:40:27  
Like after the first of November statement, or after the third of August speech? Yes, yeah. He knew it was false. He said that the context

Edwin Tong  1:40:34  
is this you you make of there's a speech that was made in Parliament, it is to speak a falsehood, anyway, serious. But in Parliament, it is all the more so. The leader of the party is aware, shortly after the third of August that it was false. He sat by and discussed with her in expectation that two months later this issue will come up again. And he was in Parliament when she reiterated the falsehoods several times, including a very strident answer that we saw the video of earlier. And then there was a meeting to say let's come clean. But he says to her through you that he will not judge her. In a context of this.

Loh Pei Ying  1:41:19  
He didn't say that to her through me. He said it to her directly in a meeting that the two of them had. But then it on the 12th of October, he relayed that he recounted it to me, I understand.

Edwin Tong  1:41:29  
Thank you for that clarification. And in that context, nothing was said about what sanctions would take place, and so on. No, this is the context that I have sketched out. Yeah. My question is in that context, Did it surprise you, when Workers Party decided to set up a disciplinary inquiry? Yes, it surprised me. I'd like you to look at the two statements issued by the Workers Party on the first and on the second of November. And I'll hand you a copy. Okay, good, good o'clock, please assist me.

The first and second November statements are statements of the Workers Party. One is titled The secretary general statement. The other is titled The worker Workers Party media statement first and second November respectively.

So Miss Lowe, let me just take you through the two statements briefly on the first of November. This is shortly after we we saw the clip in Parliament earlier, we shortly after the parliamentary sitting. The Secretary General released a statement which says MP Raeesah Khan should not have shared an account that contained on truths in the house. Let me just pause for a moment. Did you read this statement when it was issued?

Loh Pei Ying  1:43:32  
Yeah, I mean, I only read it after it was issued. I was not previously that the statement would be coming up.

Edwin Tong  1:43:39  
Did the first line struck you as odd given that, in fact, the Secretary was present in Parliament when she not just shared the truth, but continue to perpetrate it on the fourth of October?

Loh Pei Ying  1:43:54  
I wouldn't say that instruct me as odd.

Edwin Tong  1:43:57  
What was your reaction? You think this is usual?

Loh Pei Ying  1:44:04  
My honest opinion is and this is my personal opinion is that I was you know, not surprised that statement had been made? Because I think he felt obliged. And it was kind of made sense that after a big revelation that the Secretary General put out a statement. But I was I suppose not fully happy with the contents of this statement because it did not review (sic) his knowledge of the matter.

Edwin Tong  1:44:37  
Absolutely. Yeah. This seeks to draw a line and a divide between what he knew, what the Workers Party knew, and what Miss Khan. Correct.

Loh Pei Ying  1:44:49  
Yeah, it was and this is my personal opinion that the intention of this statement was to make it seem that way.

Edwin Tong  1:44:56  
Exactly. Thank you. It goes on to say that a ppi, gives an MP a significant freedom of speech. To the extent that what is said in Parliament cannot be impeached or question outside parliament. This freedom of speech does not extend to communicating untruthful accounts. Even if an MP's motives are not malicious. Again, bearing in mind the context that I've raised earlier. And bearing in mind what happened on the fourth of October, given that there was a discussion between Miss Kahn and Mr. Singh, prior to fourth of October, which centered around his expectation and this issue would be raised. And therefore what she should say in response. Does this certains strike us? Or surprising?

Loh Pei Ying  1:45:42  
The sentence MP isoHunt should not have shared an account?

Edwin Tong  1:45:45  
Yes. Does it also strike you as one which seeks to divide the line between what he, as the Secretary General knew and Workers Party knew and what misconduct?

Loh Pei Ying  1:45:57  
I don't know if it sought to divide, but it's my feeling was that it seemed to want to separate matters law. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:46:09  
Yes. Separate matters matters meaning meaning, separate meaning between workers party in a secretary general on one hand and Miss can on the other?

Loh Pei Ying  1:46:19  
Yeah, I suppose what you meant Right, yeah.

Edwin Tong  1:46:22  
It goes on to say for victims, Risa has apologized to the SPF victims of sexual assault her constituents who are members, volunteers, parents, she shared with me that she wanted to set the record straight in Parliament. Again, just pausing for a moment, this will probably make reference to the various discussions that Miss Kahn had with Mr. Singh, presumably culminating on the period around the 12th of October, correct? Yeah, correct. Might be others.

Loh Pei Ying  1:46:55  
Yeah. I mean, I, they might have conversations between the fourth of October the 12th of October. I don't know the details of those discussions, if they had any.

Edwin Tong  1:47:03  
And it goes on to say this was the correct thing to do. Yeah. This suggests that prior to this statement being made, and the apology being tendered on the first of November, he had no knowledge of this. I don't know.

But, overall, would you accept that, objectively? I know, I'm asking you to read into other people's state of mind or intentions, but objectively, I mean, your editor. Yeah. Did content. Yes. You have obviously have good experience in that on that. Having majored in history as well. Yes. Objectively, this statement conveys the impression that the Secretary General and the Workers Party in general, were not aware of the falsehoods spoken by Ms. Khan in Parliament prior to the first of November. Right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:48:10  
Again, I, I cannot because, you know, many people are at this and everyone will have different opinions of this.

Edwin Tong  1:48:20  
I'm still asking for Yeah,

Loh Pei Ying  1:48:22  
I know, I know. To me, there is given the i i knew what happened when I read this. It felt that the omission of their involvement was intentional.

Edwin Tong  1:48:34  
Yes. And that's quite stark by its omission right? Yeah. Given all that you know, that has happened. Right. Which includes Mr. Singh, Mr. Manap, and Miss Lim's, knowledge of the falsehood from a few days after the third of August. Yeah. Correct? Mmm. Now, can you go to the next statement on the second of November. This time around is a Workers Party media statement. It says that a Workers Party CC has approved the formation of a disciplinary panel to look into the admissions made by MP Risa Khan in parliament on first November, arising from an earlier speech made by the MP in Parliament on third of August 2021. The panel comprises Secretary Pritam Singh, Chair Sylvia Lim and Vice Chair Faisal Manap. The panel will report its findings and recommendations to the CEC after it completes its work. And it goes on to say that the work of the DP is separate from the CLP. Yeah. Now, Miss Lowe did not strike you as surprising that disturb was being taken. I mean, we talked about it earlier. I think he said yes, then set up a DP to do this. And it would be surprising because actually, the very people on this DP, were well aware of the truth of the matter. Yeah. From a few days after the turn of August. Yep. So the very people who were involved, knew that it was untrue, knew that she perpetrated the untruth in Parliament again, two months later, is now the only members of a DEP set up. And I look at the words here to look into the admissions by Miss Kahn. Yes, Lou, this is a completely self serving pedal, right.

Loh Pei Ying  1:50:31  
I admittedly, I think that's a loaded question. But when I saw this, looking to give, I am willing to give a bit more information. The morning of the second of November, Mr. Pritam, Singh had messaged me, to inform me that he would be doing this and that a party would be I mean, I presumably the party would follow with a statement on this matter. And I had relayed to him that, you know, I trust that they will make the right decision. I say that as the immediate response. But I was surprised. And later on, on hindsight, when I thought more about it, I do think that it's a major conflict of interest. Yes.

Edwin Tong  1:51:13  
It's not just the major couple of interests for which I agree with you in the first place, given now what we know, they knew. But it's also self serving in that. Does it not seek to, as I said earlier, draw a line between the Workers Party and Miss Kahn. Yeah. And seek to do something which ultimately would put the blame entirely on Miss Khan.

Loh Pei Ying  1:51:44  
When the disciplinary panel convene my feelings was that, okay, it's appropriate and necessary to some degree, because she did do like it's a majors is a serious mistake that she did, and very serious thing that she liked in Parliament, and therefore, make sense that she should be disciplined. Yeah. But I disagree with how it was done and executed. My personal opinion is if they felt that disciplinary action was necessary, they should have done that from the very beginning, when he knew on the third of August, following the tough August Absolutely. And

Edwin Tong  1:52:32  
would not have been appropriate when such a statement is issued. To disclose that, actually, the three members on the DEP had intimate knowledge of the falsehood from an early stage and let the public judge what they do in that context, if they should still continue to sit on the DEP. Correct. Yeah, I fully agree that it would be fair, right. Yeah. And that would also be fair to miss carne. Right? Yeah. Because Miss Kahn will be entitled to say, Actually, I came to you, the very people who are now judging me, I came to you for guidance for counseling for advice. And these are the very same senior party members of the Workers Party, right? Yeah. And so would you not accept, Miss Lowe, that the circumstances in which this DEP was set up, is far from usual, in fact, highly suspicious.

Loh Pei Ying  1:53:33  
I don't know if I would use the word suspicious. If I were to give my own take on it, I feel that perhaps the three did not realize the severity or the consequences that will follow after her statement in Parliament. I mean, after her first of November statement, and that they felt necessary to then take this action to form a disciplinary panel.

Edwin Tong  1:53:56  
You know, Miss Lowe, we talked about it earlier. Just to recount, even after the third of August, there were already some commentaries, some editorials. And yeah, I can show them to you, if you like, and I am aware of them. So it's, that's that's three months prior to this statement. In October, if nothing else, there was, at least in the minds of these three individuals. They knew that what she was saying in parliament on fourth of October was false. And these are the very same people looking into those falses and deciding what to do with her. That's highly unusual. And as I said, quite suspicious. Right?

Loh Pei Ying  1:54:36  
I will say highly unusual. I I don't know if I would use the word suspicious.

Edwin Tong  1:54:45  
You said that Mr. Singh, message you ahead of the statement being issued on the second of November? Yeah. Can you give us the broad gist of that discussion?

Loh Pei Ying  1:54:54  
It was literally just two messages. He said to me, this is happening and then I said, Okay, I trust parking meters. I mean, I trust that the DPW will, you know, make the right decision.

Edwin Tong  1:55:04  
Yeah. Did you discuss this with anyone else? In particular Miss Kahn and Mr. Nothern?

Loh Pei Ying  1:55:10  
I, I believe I told Mr. Nandan

Edwin Tong  1:55:14  
What was his reaction? He was also surprised for the same reasons we've just been discussing.

Loh Pei Ying  1:55:22  
I don't know what his reasons are. But I suppose the malaria,

Edwin Tong  1:55:26  
what do you say to like, lead you to believe that he was surprised?

Loh Pei Ying  1:55:30  
I can't recall exactly. But I can't recall exactly.

Edwin Tong  1:55:35  
But you will have those messages. And so could you please? Thank you. Now, this DEP, since it was set up on the second of November, we understand has now come concluded its work. Will you in any way aware of what happened, who was called what was discussed with documents was produced to the DP.

Loh Pei Ying  1:56:08  
So, at some point, after the announcement of the DP, as a member of the Workers Party, I received a text message stating that the panel was not inviting comments from members of the Workers Party, and that they can sort of arrange a time to meet with the DP. I don't know who has met the DP specifically, but I have I personally made a request to meet the DEP on the 25th 25th of

Edwin Tong  1:56:34  
November. You met or you made a request to meet? I met them on 25th. Can you outline what happened at this meeting?

Loh Pei Ying  1:56:44  
I give them my honest thoughts on everything.

Edwin Tong  1:56:47  
Hang on. We'll come to that. But first of all, where did this take place?

Loh Pei Ying  1:56:52  
Workers Party headquarters?

Edwin Tong  1:56:54  
What time?

Loh Pei Ying  1:56:55  
My session was at 830

Edwin Tong  1:56:59  
in the morning or evening, oh, pm pm. Who was present?

Loh Pei Ying  1:57:06  
Mr. Nandan was this me and the three DP

Edwin Tong  1:57:10  
members? So you went to see the DP jointly with Mr. Nada? That's right. And did you and Mr. Levin discuss ahead of time what you were gonna see me did? You did? Can you go into the gist of those discussions, please?

Loh Pei Ying  1:57:27  
I gave the DP my very frank opinion, which is

Edwin Tong  1:57:29  
sorry. What I meant to say was, let tell me what you had missed. And other than discuss first, before telling me what you told the DP oh, what we discussed is exactly what we told the DP. That, please go ahead and tell me what you told the DP.

Loh Pei Ying  1:57:44  
We came prepared with quite a number of points. The first point was, I mean, some context, we had a feeling that one of the decisions that they might make would be to expel Mr. mishaan from the Workers Party. Because that was what we had seen online and amongst chatter amongst members of the Workers Party. That's what we knew a lot of people had on their minds. I mean, I mean, as you can see, like a lot of newspapers, so called for that. So we went in to try and prevent them from doing that. I guess, I'm not prevented, but to give them our reasons for why they should not do that.

Edwin Tong  1:58:24  
What were your reasons?

Loh Pei Ying  1:58:26  
One of the reasons I gave was, you know, everybody makes mistakes. And while Haas was very severe, you know, other than WP MPs have also made mistakes, and that explaining how it's set a very bad precedent. Because then you would have, you know, basically, expulsion or resigning from a post would be the only option. So those are my reasons. Another reason I gave is that I, and this is also my personal opinion, I think it's very irresponsible to leave a scene in Parliament and occupy because the way I saw it, no matter how the other MPs are rotated, it felt like compass field residents will not get the proper representation that they deserve, and that is my personal opinion. I also told them, that the CC and especially the deeping should tell the public the true timeline of events which I have shared here today, that when they knew you know, what courses of action they took, yeah, I told them you should make this public knowledge bearing confidential and personal information, meaning you know, details of Miss rice enhance life and things like that. I also shared with them My personal opinion of her that she's a good kind hearted, compassionate person. And that that was something to be noted for and accounted for. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:00:12  
Thank you. Did Mr. Nava make the same point? So? Yeah, we made it together. Yeah. You will. You both had a consensus on these points. On your last point about the timeline, the reason you raised that is because this would be in the spirit of frank, open, transparent. Yeah, I believe that. Right. Yeah. And that is necessary for people in the public to know.

Loh Pei Ying  2:00:36  
I fully agree with that. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:00:39  
And not disclosing it suggests an agenda. That would be unusual.

Loh Pei Ying  2:00:46  
I, I wouldn't say suggesting agenda. That was unusual. But I think it's highly unfair to Miss Han.

Edwin Tong  2:00:55  
And also less than honest to the public. Yes. Yes. What were the questions asked of you and Mr. Nothern by the panel.

Loh Pei Ying  2:01:07  
They didn't ask us questions. We went there to tell him our opinions.

Edwin Tong  2:01:11  
So they just sit there in silence.

Loh Pei Ying  2:01:13  
Nada. They disagreed with some of the things I shared.

Edwin Tong  2:01:23  
Did you explain

Loh Pei Ying  2:01:27  
I gave them in my opinion, which is I said, If Ms. Various Ilhan were to be expelled from Sengkang, or from bogus party, that the remaining three single MPs should step down and rerun the entire GRC. And that is my personal opinion, which Mr. VLM and Mr. Pritam Singh disagree. And Mr. Lim did bring up an anecdote about I believe the motion that Mr. Leon put up in Parliament many years ago. Yeah. To explain

Edwin Tong  2:02:03  
why he thought, or it may not be a natural consequence of one MP stepping down for the entire GRC to step down.

Loh Pei Ying  2:02:09  
Yeah, basically, that is disproportionate to byelection the whole GRC

Edwin Tong  2:02:14  
Yeah. What else? Did this comment on or disagree on to you or Mr. Nalan?

Loh Pei Ying  2:02:21  
Well, I did tell. I also didn't mention to Mr. Pritam Singh, that. I mean, it's a connected point. So I told him, You should tell the public the truth. Or at least we lay a timeline of the events. Because it shows his involvement in the proceedings, I mean, of what has happened. And that, you know, sorry, I'm trying to, sure, collect my thoughts. And I told him, that he has a degree of responsibility on what transpired on the fourth of October, because he's a leader of the party and leader of the opposition. And he could have made a clarification then if he wanted to. Yeah. And I think it's important the public knows,

Edwin Tong  2:03:16  
when you say, tell the public the truth, to bring the clarification. You mean in what you mean about his own level of involvement and knowledge, and that of Muslim and Mr. Muslim as well. The three members who were on the panel?

Loh Pei Ying  2:03:31  
I don't know if I would agree that he will share all of that with parliament on the fourth of October, but I definitely do think he should have, you know, said something.

Edwin Tong  2:03:40  
Yeah. At least, if nothing else, at the very latest point in time, at the time, you set up a panel comprising the very three members who knew? Yeah, about a false it's early on, and who knew that it was repeated on the fourth of October? Right. That's what you mean by tell the public the truth?

Loh Pei Ying  2:03:56  
Yeah. At some point, basically,

Edwin Tong  2:04:01  
yes. Well, certainly before the point at which the DP has concluded his findings, which seems to have been done yesterday, a couple of days ago. Right.

Loh Pei Ying  2:04:15  
Yeah. So I mean, sorry, I was trying to recall the pilot training. So when I shared with Mr. Singh, my thoughts. He had a disagreement with me that he gave her choice on the fourth of October, which is, you know, him saying, I won't judge you. Yeah, he reiterated that. So he disagree with me in the sense that he didn't think it was explicitly his responsibility to step up and clarify.

Edwin Tong  2:04:49  
So he's saying that despite knowing that what was said on a third of August was untrue, was false. He was prepared to sit back and listen to another office. party members in parliament, in answer to questions by cabinet minister, repeat the falsehoods perpetrate the untruths, two months later. And that was a choice he's prepared to make as leader of the party. Was that? Is that an accurate summary of what he said to you?

Loh Pei Ying  2:05:20  
And I don't know if that's an accurate summary. But as I said, when he says to her, I will not judge you, he should have prepared for an either or consequence.

Edwin Tong  2:05:30  
Meaning he should be prepared that if testing results in an inquiry, like it has done now that he should be prepared to step up and accept responsibility for his role and knowledge. Is that what you mean? Yeah. When you made the point about coming, clean to tell the public the truth, what was the reaction of the other two members of the panel?

Loh Pei Ying  2:05:58  
Needing to say anything, they just like nod their heads and jot down like say,

Edwin Tong  2:06:03  
they didn't disagree with you know,

Loh Pei Ying  2:06:06  
all right. They didn't say anything. So I don't know if they agree or disagree.

Edwin Tong  2:06:11  
Is there a recording of what happened? who keep who kept notes of what happened at that?

Loh Pei Ying  2:06:16  
There was no recording, like, you know, no phone or whatever? And I don't I didn't see anyone taking minutes. But all three were taking notes. So they

Edwin Tong  2:06:27  
had their own notes. Yeah. And did you come prepared with something in writing is you give something to them?

Loh Pei Ying  2:06:33  
So I, it was like, kind of in my phone and in my head. And then I had to put my phone away? Because they didn't allow me to bring my phone in. So I jotted it down to people, but it's rare that we're ready.

Edwin Tong  2:06:47  
Okay. All right. And so what you've given us is as best as you can remember your account? Correct. But it is likely that the Workers Party DP would have kept notes of what you said to them?

Loh Pei Ying  2:06:58  
I'm not sure. Yeah. I don't know to what extent of the I mean, how thorough the notes are.

Edwin Tong  2:07:02  
Yes. But you did see them taking some notes as you were speaking. Yeah. Right now, a few more questions or DEP? Do you know who else when before the DEP to give because you said that there was a message you received to come and give their comments to DEP right.

Loh Pei Ying  2:07:17  
I don't know who else went to the DEP.

Edwin Tong  2:07:20  
When did you receive this message? SMS? Yes. When it when was it

Loh Pei Ying  2:07:24  
when? I can't remember.

Edwin Tong  2:07:28  
Do to after the second of November, or is it closer to when you met with them, which is 25th of November?

Loh Pei Ying  2:07:37  
I can't remember but I can go and check my phone

Edwin Tong  2:07:40  
that useful. Thank you. Going back to my earlier question. Do you know if any other activists or volunteer or Carter member went to see the DP?

Loh Pei Ying  2:07:50  
No. The To my knowledge, the DP is strictly for members. Okay.

Edwin Tong  2:07:54  
Did Miss can see the DP?

Loh Pei Ying  2:07:58  
To my knowledge, he or she? I mean, she didn't. He wasn't one of the I mean, she's the subject of inquiry. So I think she did meet the DP at some point, but I don't think she went there is like in response to the call for members to Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:08:16  
Okay. I mean, did she share with you while we're discussing the DP?

Loh Pei Ying  2:08:21  
No, not in not in tremendous detail.

Edwin Tong  2:08:25  
Yes. What detail she gave you? First of all, when did she see the DP?

Loh Pei Ying  2:08:31  
I know that I kind of again, I don't know, I'm not privy of the exact, you know, timing and day and things like that. But at some point, she did meet the DEP. I believe she met them twice. The first one? I'm not sure when. And I also sorry, I'm not fully aware of what exactly was exchanged. I think they just hadn't, you know, I think from what she showed me there was some questions and she hadn't gone into like, answer them law. Yeah. And then I know she met again. On the day with I think she met them. Actually, this is Monday, the Monday that just passed.

Edwin Tong  2:09:22  
That would have been the

Loh Pei Ying  2:09:25  
29th of November.

Edwin Tong  2:09:28  
Right. Are you aware of the contents of the discussion she had with the DEP?

Loh Pei Ying  2:09:34  
He shared with me. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:09:37  
orally on my messaging, Arnie. Can you give us a gist of what happened?

Loh Pei Ying  2:09:45  
She said that they were strongly encouraged encouraging her. Okay. I mean, I don't know if I'm making this up like and not that I'm making things up. But I want to be careful with the words that I use because you know, I wasn't part of this conversation. It was secondhand information.

Edwin Tong  2:10:03  
Yeah, mister. I mean, you're right in being careful. So I thank you. Yeah. But what we want you to do is just to recount what she said, No,

Loh Pei Ying  2:10:10  
no. I think she she said, I mean, she was quite emotional on the phone. Okay, that's first of all. And second, she said that. The they asked her to think about resignation.

Edwin Tong  2:10:29  
What was her reaction to that? She was very, very upset. And she was upset because she,

Loh Pei Ying  2:10:35  
she didn't know at that point of time. On Monday, she had not wanted to resign.

Edwin Tong  2:10:44  
And in fact, the thrust of your submission to the DEP was why she should not be expelled or made to resign. Right. Yeah. Because you felt that Well, besides excused the reasons you've given people make mistakes. You also felt that this was something where the senior leadership had been aware and yeah, had acted in, if not, based on their advice, at least with the acquiescence and acknowledge. Yes. Right. So those are the reasons why you felt that she should not be expelled. And I

Loh Pei Ying  2:11:17  
I mean, many reasons law, as I said, like one I think it's not right to leave the residents of Catonsville, unrepresented in Parliament. Second, that they were involved in the sense that they had knowledge of, you know, the lie, some mistake, yes. But thereafter, they are involved. And, you know, as you said, it's like, you know, a few months worth of, you know, back and forth sort of thing.

Edwin Tong  2:11:43  
Yeah. And this few months back and forth, at least these three members of the elite, correct. Not just knew, but I think they were intimately involved because they knew what was happening shortly after third of August. And they also gave comments and crafted a statement on the first of November.

Loh Pei Ying  2:12:03  
So I don't know if Mr. fizeram Anna was involved in the crafting and the statement, I only know that it needs Mr. Singh and missing elements involved.

Edwin Tong  2:12:11  
So what I just said applies suddenly to Mr. Singh and Mr. Lim are not so sure about Mr. Manoj. Yeah, right. What was Miss Hans reaction to being asked to think about resigning?

Loh Pei Ying  2:12:26  
He was, as I said, very, very upset. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:12:30  
But we now know that she has done so. Yes. When you spoke with her on the phone, you said she was emotional. Did you from your perspective, I'm not asking you to read her mind per se. But from your perspective from what she said and how she sounded. Did you think she felt pressured to resign?

Loh Pei Ying  2:12:50  
No, I don't think she felt pressured. And

Edwin Tong  2:12:57  
in the context of a discussion like this, yeah. And again, let me paint the context. There was a falsehood, yes, is a mistake, discussed with senior party leaders discussed with Mr. Singh before fourth of October, where she expected to face questions further questions on this. He was in chamber meeting at his home on top of October discussions thereafter, what to do? No mention of consequences, no mention of a DP in particular, and certainly no mention of you having to step down and resign in that context. I'm saying what should not have, at the very least felt unnerved or affected by the suggestion that she should now resign? And with that, with that signal that she should take responsibility for what has happened entirely.

Loh Pei Ying  2:13:56  
She was definitely unnerved. But I think they will also careful to not instruct which is why I think I said that the resignation was something she should consider. But I think even an acknowledgement that that is something that she should do. Or consider taking was very disappointing to her.

Edwin Tong  2:14:29  
And unexpected.

Loh Pei Ying  2:14:32  
I wouldn't say unexpected, as I said, because a lot of people have been calling for her resignation.

Edwin Tong  2:14:37  
Yes by this a lot of people are basically outsiders. They are people in the press people in the media, third parties. I'm focused on the people who actually knew what was happening in that context, given what had transpired from Miss Khan's perspective, would have been unexpected.

Loh Pei Ying  2:14:57  
Again, I wouldn't use the term unexpected because it was something that I think people knew were on the cards, but even mishaan herself, but I think she felt very letdown. Yeah. And Dragon is the assumption of how I think she felt,

Edwin Tong  2:15:18  
of course, she will come and give evidence will and we will ask that. But it's useful from your perspective. And I thank you very much for that. Just want to confirm, too that she had not discussed or broach the subject of either having a disciplinary inquiry or panel or having to step down. That was not something that she had told you was discussed between herself and Mr. Singh, or Muslim or Mr. Manoj?

Loh Pei Ying  2:15:48  
Correct. Discuss prior to her prior to her statement. Yeah, no, she knows. Yeah, it was all Nullah. Yeah. Okay.

Edwin Tong  2:16:00  
No. When Miss can when before the disciplinary panel. And as we saw, the panel was set up to look into the false statements, and I'm paraphrasing false statements and her admission of the false statements, and what not to do with her. That's the thrust of the panel's Terms of Reference as it were right.

Would not one answer by Miss can be that Hey, why are you asking me this? You all knew all along? What has been happening?

Loh Pei Ying  2:16:46  
I mean, I don't know what she thought about it. No, but oh, I'm actually I do. Sorry. I'm just recalling now. I think when the DP was with us. When the DP was convened, she expressed surprise. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:17:04  
And can you elaborate?

Loh Pei Ying  2:17:08  
I suppose she didn't she? Again, I don't want to be putting words in her mouth. But I think maybe to some degree, she felt a bit betrayed. Because, again, you know, there was no inkling that it might happen. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:17:24  
Yeah. I mean, no inkling that might happen. And you you said, betrayed, presumably because you felt that since she's been, she had been transparent with them from the start to them. Yes. Transparent, in your words, open consulting, even getting advice on what to do meeting at his home. Women suddenly to see that as inquiry culminating maybe a few days ago in

Loh Pei Ying  2:17:48  
Yeah, I don't know if he met his face. But they had meetings. Yeah, she might

Edwin Tong  2:17:54  
have. So but culminating in a suggestion to consider resigning was certainly the backdrop to why you say you think she felt betrayed?

Loh Pei Ying  2:18:05  
Yeah, right.

Edwin Tong  2:18:12  
Can I ask you to please look at the statement issued by the party? This one,

maybe my clubs could assist me please. This statement issued by the Workers Party on there isn't a date. But I think this is it's the same 1/30 of November, right? You have a copy video? The second of November? No, the 30th of November.

Loh Pei Ying  2:18:47  
I don't have. This is the second on the real estate. Demo. This is to both at the same and I presume you're referring to WP statement on her resignation.

Edwin Tong  2:19:09  
Yes, that's right. Do you have that? No, I

Loh Pei Ying  2:19:11  
don't have any baby. No, this the disciplinary panel?

Edwin Tong  2:19:15  
I think this lady will give you a copy.

Loh Pei Ying  2:19:21  
Yes, thank you.

Edwin Tong  2:19:26  
So Mr. This, you will have seen the statement. Yeah, I did. It's a short statement. It just says that she has resigned from the party talks about the the CC meeting on the 30th of November, which I think you also referred to earlier. And then it talks about Ms. Khan at 430 on 30th of November indicating her wish to resign and then a public press conference that will be held on the second of December. So the circumstances We have just been discussing in relation to the calling of the VDP. Her intentions, her thinking, and so on the background information, all of that should be read in the context or rather, this table ought to be read in the context of all that has happened. To fully understand why it is and how it is that Wiscon has now come to resign from the party, right. Do you have any knowledge in relation to why she decided to resign at 430? Different member before the CC meeting? I do with us, please.

Loh Pei Ying  2:20:42  
She had called. She had caught I can't remember if she had caught me or I had caught her earlier that day. But I think we had a phone call. And she had expressed to me her desire to resign. And I tried to I mean, I tried to discourage her from it. Again, again, because I've told you all the reasons why I think it was not the correct thing to do. But I think she felt that she just couldn't continue with the knowledge that she already had.

Edwin Tong  2:21:31  
The knowledge that you had, can you be a bit more precise

Loh Pei Ying  2:21:33  
was the knowledge that she had been asked to consider resignation?

Edwin Tong  2:21:37  
Yes. So that was a key factor.

Loh Pei Ying  2:21:43  
Yeah. And definitely her final, like her decision to resign is definitely hers alone. Yes. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:21:51  
But you would say, influenced by a key factor, which I

Loh Pei Ying  2:21:55  
will say all this influence? Yeah. So I will put

Edwin Tong  2:21:59  
it this way. Miss Lowe, you know, whether your employer employee or a member or for party. Yeah. If the employer or the party has signaled that you should consider resigning? Yeah, I think that's a very powerful statement. Right?

Loh Pei Ying  2:22:14  
Yes. And I think for her, she felt like she no longer had the support needed to continue. Yeah. And which is why she decided to, to resign.

Edwin Tong  2:22:25  
Yes. Yeah. And so she decided to do it even before the CC met. Yeah. Do you know what happened at the CC meeting on the 30th of November?

Loh Pei Ying  2:22:38  
No, I don't know. I mean, I know basically wants to know that she met them. She said, You know, I would like to resign. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:22:46  
Okay. I know, it's been a while. And I Sorry to keep you here. Questions to wrap up so that we are clear on the facts. Okay. On the on the miscounts involvement with the DEP. I just want to get the dates right. I'm clear. The DEP was set up on a lease announced on a second on November. And then you told me that at some stage, there was a mess notice to members to come and give statements and you don't know who and how many went to give them? Yes. Right. But you do know that Miss scan went to the DP on two occasions?

Loh Pei Ying  2:23:22  
And she I don't know. Yeah, she met the DP on two occasions. Is

Edwin Tong  2:23:25  
it true or or at least two occasions and is to at least two, would you be able to give me the rough dates. If you don't know them? Now, presumably, you might have been told by mishaan before she went there she was going and you might then be will see a message trail.

Loh Pei Ying  2:23:40  
Yeah, I will have to go and look at my messages. Could you please do

Edwin Tong  2:23:43  
that? So that we have a timeline for this? Okay. Did you and mishaan Discuss what materials you should prepare to go for this meeting the DP

Loh Pei Ying  2:23:54  
that me and Miss hunt discuss? I think she was asked to provide some evidence in I had met up with her on Deepavali. It was public holiday. And I knew she was feeling really down. So I offered to visit her at her place. And we briefly discussed it where I know she was asked to provide some evidence now. That was the discussion we had about her first meeting with the DEP what

Edwin Tong  2:24:29  
what kind of evidence was what she asked to produce?

Loh Pei Ying  2:24:34  
I think you know about why she lied. And you know, anything related to perhaps the support group.

Edwin Tong  2:24:47  
But what's the nature of this evidence going to do for the DP when the DP already knew that she had lied and she had given a statement and she repeated it on the fourth of October, and I'm not sure did you Help us to prepare the notes of a crash in our computer. Okay, sorry. Okay. Can I offer you any more water? Yes, please, please help me with some water. Thank you. Thank you Sophia Thank you.

Okay. Thank you. Yeah, Miss Mr. Sorry, you in the middle of an answer.

Asked you just to repeat what's the nature of going of this evidence going to do when the DPO renewed that she had lied, given a statement repeatedly on the fourth of October?

Loh Pei Ying  2:26:10  
My answer, I think was I don't know.

Edwin Tong  2:26:12  
I had to ask her because they didn't capture the answer. Okay. And then you mentioned that you met her at home on Deepavali, which is tend to be the fourth of November. Yeah. So by the fourth of November, she knew she was going to be facing this DP, but had not yet seen them. Yeah. But by that time, she had already been asked to produce evidence. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Do you know how they communicated with her to produce evidence?

Loh Pei Ying  2:26:37  
I believe he was by email, by email.

Edwin Tong  2:26:41  
And did you share the email with you?

Loh Pei Ying  2:26:43  
No, she didn't. She just told me

Edwin Tong  2:26:47  
okay. And roughly, if you can remember how long after the fourth of November, did she go and see the DP? I can't remember. After she saw the DP for the first time. Did she discuss it with you? Did you get a debrief?

Loh Pei Ying  2:27:04  
I can't remember. I will have to check.

Edwin Tong  2:27:07  
Okay. And then she had her second meeting before or after your 25th? November meeting with the DEP. After after? Yeah,

Loh Pei Ying  2:27:18  
she, as I said she met them I believe on the morning of 29th. November Monday.

Edwin Tong  2:27:27  
I see. And there was a second meeting. Yeah. You're not aware there might have been a third one before?

Loh Pei Ying  2:27:31  
Yeah. No, I'm not aware. Am I allowed to add something? Yes, of course, a lot of the things that I'm sharing here today is shared with me by Miss Han, in my capacity as a friend in a confident Yeah. And I believe that, technically, I'm not supposed to know, a lot of these things.

Edwin Tong  2:28:11  
Yes, I understand the context in which was shared with you. But here in the context of this question that we are tasked to look into. Yeah, we do have to evaluate the factual circumstances. I understand. We do have to reach conclusions on them. Yeah. So what you share with us will be helpful for us to reach a holistic view on this.

Loh Pei Ying  2:28:31  
And I want to be as truthful as I can. But I'm just, you know, clarifying that, yes. Okay.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:28:36  
Just reinforce a point, I think we are fact finding and understand the circumstance, because as you're aware, what has transpired in parliament is serious. And, and while she has admitted it, we are also assessing a capability, are there mitigating factors and so on. So I think the full context of it is explained by Minister when it's important for us. And so I understand that the tensions you might feel because obvious things are shared in confidence. I hope you understand the context, why it's important for us to understand so that we can eventually evaluate and ascertain why it happened, how it happened. And I guess the degree to which she bears responsibility for actions

Loh Pei Ying  2:29:22  
understand it's just I I have I am attorney I don't feel come fully comfortable because I mean, she trusted me. Yeah.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:29:34  
And we appreciate what you're sharing

Edwin Tong  2:29:38  
is low i i just have a couple of more questions to ask you and I want to focus on the request by the police to interview Miss Carr. Maybe the best thing to do is show you a document because it's probably shortcuts. Okay the effects could have could the classes this movies

This is a copy of police statement issued on the 20th of October. So it sets out some dates in there. Just to refresh that August was the parliamentary sitting. Fourth October was the exchanges, Minister Shanmugam. And then it goes into the fourth paragraph here and says that there's an email sent on the seventh of October. And again, on the 15th of October, inviting mishaan to get in touch with the police for an interview. Now pausing for a moment, were you aware of this at the time it happened?

Loh Pei Ying  2:30:48  
Yeah, she did share with me that the police had emailed her. Was

Edwin Tong  2:30:51  
there a discussion on what the appropriate response ought to be?

Loh Pei Ying  2:30:58  
I mean, I, I had just reacted like, you know, like, like, not necessarily to go Oh, my gosh, but like, go, oh, no, you know, kind of thing. But beyond that, I didn't. I can't recall by we discussed it law. But I think I might have suggested that, you know, she should go and find a lawyer. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:31:23  
Not necessarily the best thing to do. Always.

Loh Pei Ying  2:31:27  
I just I, as a friend, I was like this absolutely nothing I can do to help you at this point. So somebody who who is more professional, and this would, you know, would be better. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:31:37  
But was there a discussion on what she should do? Should she see the police? She responded? I

Loh Pei Ying  2:31:44  
didn't discuss that with her. I see. I just said, lawyer.

Edwin Tong  2:31:49  
You know, if she disgusted with anyone within Workers Party?

Loh Pei Ying  2:31:54  
I believe they thought she did inform Mr. Pritam Singh. Yeah. I think at some point, she told me she shared it with him. Right.

Edwin Tong  2:32:00  
Do you know what his response was to this? No,

Loh Pei Ying  2:32:02  
I don't know. Okay.

Edwin Tong  2:32:04  
Is there any reason that you can shed light as to why she did not respond to the two police emails? No,

Loh Pei Ying  2:32:10  
I I can. I don't know why she didn't respond.

Edwin Tong  2:32:14  
Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I've got no further questions for Miss Lowe. Thank you very much, Miss Miss Lowe. I appreciate that. You've been trying our best to help us with the details. And I appreciate very much. Mr. Graceful.

Grace Fu  2:32:27  
Thank you very much. You allow me I'll actually refer to something that you said earlier on quite early in the process. You just repeat what you have said and captured here. Please let us know if it's not captured accurately. She told us this is in respond to your zoom discussion with Miss Kahn as well as Mr. Nunn navan. She told us that she had lied because she was once a victim or survivor herself of sexual assault. she relayed to us that this has happened when she was overseas when she was 18. And that she had sought, I guess, to heal from this episode by attending support groups. And that's when she learned of this anecdote. Without going into specifics about you know, her circumstances that she shared with you whether the support group was actually held in Singapore or in the US because I understand that what has happened to her actually happened in the US.

Loh Pei Ying  2:33:40  
I don't know if it happened in the US. Yeah. But I surprisingly have never asked her that question. But I yeah, sorry. I lost track of my thought there. But yeah, the support group is in Singapore.

Grace Fu  2:33:59  
So actually, you have actually in her discussion, confirm with her that she has attended support groups in Singapore. Thank you

Zaqy Mohamad  2:34:16  
Thanks, thanks so much for your statements earlier. I just have a couple of questions which I thought you know, would give us a better sense of her thinking and her reflections you know, we've already established apart that confidentiality was not necessary for her to put forth the case that she want to make an in in therefore doing that made a false statement. So but, you know, in the last general election, she also raised another point about you know, the police you know, and how they discriminated against certain segments and race. The you know, whether there is an agenda in our in our mind, against the police or agent sees of law people law. And then you know whether, you know that, you know was was was was an agenda that motivated her enough to make this lie?

Loh Pei Ying  2:35:12  
No, there was no agenda. She she really like just wanted to help sexual assault victims.

Zaqy Mohamad  2:35:18  
Okay, but there's a certain pattern that you see no. Law.

Loh Pei Ying  2:35:23  
Yeah, but my understanding of her character and her personality and having worked with her on the last one and a half years, that was not her agenda.

Zaqy Mohamad  2:35:32  
Okay. The second question I had was between August 7 and eight and before first Nov. Was it ever in her mind before the discipline committee spoke to her about resigning that resignation or coming clean would be something to do?

Loh Pei Ying  2:35:55  
So sorry, I don't fully understand

Zaqy Mohamad  2:35:57  
that at any point before she was asked to resign by the Rescue Committee with her or with the with the she ever considered coming clean before being forced to come clean on first November or to consider resignation as a as an act? You know, because

Loh Pei Ying  2:36:12  
right before the first of November, yes. At some point of our, you know, discussions between just mean her I think that was I felt the stress that she was feeling. And I did tell her that as a friend, and I see this completely as a friend I said, if it's too much to bear, you know, you can resign. Yeah. But she immediately said no, and she said, that's not the right thing to do. Like she wanted to do the right thing for her residents. And next issue, Conklin. Yeah.

Zaqy Mohamad  2:36:53  
And in her view in saying that, you know, she does not feel that, you know, that failure to be truthful and honest, and not living up to the expectations in terms of integrity of a Member of Parliament, representative of the people that didn't occur to her in terms of what she had done in this reflection.

Loh Pei Ying  2:37:14  
I don't think that's accurate, I think. I mean, definitely, she feels very guilty. And she's very aware that it's a very serious offense. I mean, not. I don't know if I were used to offense, but a very serious thing to do law. Yeah. In she's fully aware of that she feels very bad. Yeah. Which is, I mean, my personal thing is that, yeah, it was definitely her mistake to lie. And it was definitely something she shouldn't do. But it also took a lot of courage for her to come clean on the first of November, knowing that a lot of this will follow. And also, at the same time having to review a very private aspect of herself that even her parents did not know, until very recently. I, I mean, so I think that courage stems from her desire to want to do the right thing. And, you know, and also because she probably felt guilty about lying to Parliament,

Zaqy Mohamad  2:38:17  
what what part of it was also that sense that she had that she had the support of the party and leadership to continue despite knowing that, you know, this is what she's done so far.

Loh Pei Ying  2:38:29  
I will say that's true. She felt that she had the support at the time,

Zaqy Mohamad  2:38:33  
from the leadership, and etc. Thank you. So don't worry.

Don Wee  2:38:44  
Jaime slow. Hi. So Workers Party held a press conference, which ended about half an

Loh Pei Ying  2:38:50  
hour ago. Oh, so I didn't know what time it was.

Don Wee  2:38:53  
So during the conference, Mr. Pritam Singh actually informed the press that the leadership was aware of the untruth a week after the October 3 sitting. So he also mentioned that he a toe is con tu tu clarify in October. So do you agree with this statement?

Loh Pei Ying  2:39:20  
So he told the public that he only knew one thing after the fourth of October

Don Wee  2:39:25  
year and he also told Miss Kahn to repeat the untruth and clarify in parliament in October, despite, however, despite being asked to do so, Miss Kahn did not do so. So Mr. Pritam Singh see that a moment ago.

Loh Pei Ying  2:39:43  
All I can say it, that's very disappointing to hear.

Don Wee  2:39:47  
At the same time, he also told the press that he had told Miss Kahn to contact the victim and any relevant individuals as the authorities will be likely to seek clarification from is can the Miss can he tell you that? The party leadership actually number two

Loh Pei Ying  2:40:08  
they might have but I don't know this part. Thank you.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:40:16  
No questions? Answer definitely.

Desmond Lee  2:40:21  
Afternoon Mr. Doe, just some basic questions. There's a gentleman by the name of Mr. Lim handling. Who's on our gender sheet, the legislative assistant. Yeah. Member of Parliament, Former Member of Parliament for Sengkang GRC. miseration. Are you aware of this gentleman?

Loh Pei Ying  2:40:50  
Yeah. We know him as Mike. Mike. Yeah, he doesn't like his Chinese New.

Desmond Lee  2:40:55  
Thank you. What is his role as the legislative assistant from your understanding

Loh Pei Ying  2:41:02  
his role as the legislative assistant, I think it's a bit different from perhaps PP MPs, from WP MPs. The legislative assistant primarily looks after groundwork, such as organizing events, you know, rostering, like house visits, doing, you know, state walks and things like that. So that is his primary responsibility. He also I guess, sometimes assists with, you know, following up with like, a state management matters, for example, you know, that's like, that's been very full and things like that he would help relate a concern back to town council.

Desmond Lee  2:41:37  
Because in the earlier evidence you gave this morning, you mentioned, Mr. Northern and yourself principally made no mention of this. Yeah. Mr. Lim. From your understanding, was he involved in any of this relevant speeches? This kind of made

Loh Pei Ying  2:41:59  
no noise at all? And I think if when you meet Mr. Lim, I presume we all haven't met him yet. Yeah. When you meet him, you understand? He's not? Yeah, he doesn't really get involved at all with legislative work specifically, like parliamentary work.

Desmond Lee  2:42:14  
But in relation to the matters of the third of third of August, and subsequently, in October, do you know if Mr. mangalam was

Loh Pei Ying  2:42:25  
No, he did not know. Yeah. He only knew, like, pretty much when the statements about to be made.

Desmond Lee  2:42:32  
The November statement, yeah. Okay. Yep. Thank you. No further questions.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  2:42:36  
Mr. How you muslim.

Rahayu Mahzam  2:42:40  
Thank you very much for your lenses. earlier. I just wanted to get some clarification on some points, just to understand your relationship with Miss Raisa connection. Yeah. You seem to know very well, you've had a friendship with before she came into politics?

Loh Pei Ying  2:42:55  
No, actually, I did not know her, even when she I mean, we were acquainted for the purposes of the general election because she was running as a candidate. But part that I was not a friend of hers, like we were not personally acquainted. Black, close friends or anything. Yeah. During the course of what you actually write true. Yeah, true. The costs of working as a secretary assistant last one ish year, I got to know her pretty well. Okay.

Rahayu Mahzam  2:43:25  
I wanted to just go to the point, where, you know, if you recall, she was asked on first of November by the Leader of the House to explain why she put down shoes, and she gave two main points. One was because of a concern of the confidentiality point, because you wanted to protect the people involved. And we established earlier that he didn't actually need to raise that. The second point was the fact that she was also facing her own challenges in terms of facing up to her own experiences. I wanted to ask in terms of crafting those parts of the speech. Are you aware to what extent that came from her and to what extent that came from the input and feedback from the people who are helping

Loh Pei Ying  2:44:07  
her? Sorry, you're referring to which speech,

Rahayu Mahzam  2:44:10  
one on the first of November declaratory speech where she gave for clarification?

Loh Pei Ying  2:44:16  
No, her clarification is for all her own. Nobody prepared that on her own. Yeah. Okay.

Rahayu Mahzam  2:44:23  
Just wanted to get one point, which I believe Minister Edwin had elaborated a bit but you made this point, which I want to understand it better because I think we will discuss, Ewing asked about the timelines and how he felt very strongly that that should be something that we should openly see. And you made a comment about how, you know, also that it would be highly unfair to miss can. Could you just elaborate what you meant by that? If it was not, if it was not disclosed, that you know, the full timeline that would have been very unfair to her. Why did you feel that way?

Loh Pei Ying  2:45:00  
I said I, my this is again my personal opinion. And I stress personal and opinion by belief is Miss hands mistake. And the extent of a mistake is lying in Parliament, Donna three occasions. But beyond that she is not a soul actor and how things transpire. And when she could she went when she felt the need to come clean, she had informed leadership of the meta. And therefore, you know, it wasn't a well, it wasn't like they didn't know. Yeah. So I felt that it's not very fair that on the public level, it looks like everything is just on her.

Rahayu Mahzam  2:45:54  
Thank you very much.

Edwin Tong  2:45:58  
Mr. Chairman. I've, I've since looked at some of the press coverage of events, which the Workers Party press conference touches, which also touches on the points which had raised with Miss Lowe earlier. So may I have permission to put some points to her on that basis? Yes, please. Mister, I'm looking at this literally, as I speak with you. Yeah, but there are several points which cut across what we have been discussing earlier, and I'd like to get your clarification on it. And this is based on the media reports. CNA reports Mr. Singh as saying that Miss Kahn had repeated the untruth in parliament in October, despite being asked to clarify the matter, then. That's one statement. Mr. Singh is also quoted as saying that initially, and this is in quotes, initially, Raisa, stuck to her untruth in her communications with me. He is also quoted as saying, after being repeatedly pressed, which I took it to mean after Miss harness repeatedly pressed. A number of new facts and disturbing personal revelations with disclosed these concern racial sexual assault and events which were unknown to the party leadership at that time, and other related matters of a deeply personal nature shared with the district party leadership about a week after she had delivered her speech. Adding sorry, adding that these personal traumas explained why she had not been truthful in her account. Let me just pause there for a moment. I mean, those are the verbatim quotes. Is it? Does it cohere with your own sense of what happened when Mr. Singh says that Miss Kahn stuck to her untruth in a communications with me?

Loh Pei Ying  2:48:08  
No, it doesn't. And I would like to share now that I know that this has happened, I would like to share a couple of my thoughts about it. Admittedly, I am not privy to the specifics of the conversation between Miss Han and Mr. Pritam Singh. So there's a degree there might be a degree of interpretations of what might have transpired between the two of them. And perhaps, in you know, separate occasion they might, you know, have misremembered certain things and told me a different account of things. But I'm quite sure, and I don't know if I already mentioned this earlier. So while Miss Han told me on the seventh of August, the truth, I had a meeting with Mr. Pritam Singh on the 10th of August on a separate matter. And while we were waiting and promised the additional use extra another host also with me at this meeting about this other separate matter, we are very good friends. Okay. Briefly, Mr. Pritam Singh confirm that he knew with me, I, we didn't talk about it explicitly, because we, you know, didn't want to say it out loud. But I had briefly conversed on the matter with him. And his acknowledgment of it suggested to me that he knew. Yeah, which is why I would like to also add the I'm, I'm really upset that that did not get shared with the public.

Edwin Tong  2:49:33  
Well, this occasion was not shared with the public. Neither was the occasion. Prior to the fourth of October, when my son went to Parliament to in the expectation your words when he had a sense that this was going to be raised again, you recall you said that and then she met with Miss Han, presumably to prepare for what to say in and

Loh Pei Ying  2:49:59  
can I At whatever Mr. Pritam Singh has relayed to me, Mr. User, sir, as my witness that I received this information because he received the same when he was president as me on many of these occasions.

Edwin Tong  2:50:14  
I understand. And I wanted to add on to what I just said earlier on the fourth of October incident, because Mr. Singh is quoted as saying, and I quote in from the CNA report that Miss Han encode repeated an untruth on the parliamentary record, which was wholly inconsistent with the revelations, shared with the party leadership after October, after August 3. Almost immediately after Parliament adjourn in October ratio agreed with the party leadership that she had to set the record right forthwith. I shared with her that it was the correct thing to do. The earliest the next earliest opportunity to do so was in was on November 1. pausing for a moment, this account, assuming this is all that was said, misses out a number of a number of key details. Yeah, right. That we had discussed. Yeah. Which would shed light on the internal knowledge of Mr. Singh, and to other senior members of the Workers Party, correct. Yeah. And, in fact, the earliest opportunity to do so was not November 1, because, as you remember, there were intervening police emails. He added that Miss Han sent her resignation letter on November 30. Again, it misses out on some contexts, which we had discussed earlier, about the background to how she had felt that she had lost the confidence of the party and felt that she had to resign.

Loh Pei Ying  2:51:46  
I don't know if she lost the confidence of the party, but she didn't feel like she had that she didn't feel like she had the support. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:51:58  
Let me just quote another portion to you. When asked why the claim was allowed to remain uncorrected, Mr. Pritam. Singh said, and I quote, each Worker's Party MP is a leader in his or her own right. And if you have done something wrong, it is your responsibility to set the record right. Further on, He is quoted as saying, but only raesha knew the truth of what she had said, and what she had experienced. And it is for her to clarify that on the record. And I think that would have been only adequately communicated through her personally. Again, Miss Lowe doesn't accord with the sequence of events. And in some ways, if I can paraphrase it, the trust that mishaan placed in the senior leadership by going to them first, shortly after the third of August, Yeah, correct.

Loh Pei Ying  2:52:57  
Again, I I am not. Obviously, I'm very aware now that what Mr. Pritam Singh is saying to the public, and what I share here is very different, especially with matters before fourth of October. I'm not privy to the specifics of the conversation between him and Miss Han. I only have, you know, summaries. transport the of what transpired by given to me by both of them.

Edwin Tong  2:53:24  
I understand. Yeah. But from that perspective, and I'm not asking you to second guess what Mr. Singh had, it is fine. I'm asking you based on what you know, of communications, you heard directly from mishaan. This would not accord with how the events played out, given what we know about the level of knowledge within the Workers Party, correct? Yes. Or go on to say that the President asked Miss the sing some questions, and this is what the report says. And I read it to you. In response to questions over why Miss Han did not follow orders. To clarify the matter in October. Mr. Singh added why she didn't take heed of that instruction. Why did she ignore it? That is not a question I can answer. First of all, to characterize the October the pre October 4 meeting as an instruction to speak the truth is quite at odds with what I think you had shared with us earlier. Yeah. Correct.

Loh Pei Ying  2:54:26  
Yes, and I would like to add a bit to this. When I met the disciplinary panel on the 25th of November, Mr. Pritam Singh had tried to relate to me again this episode where he supposedly spoke to her and asked her to speak the truth. And the way that he had taught, he had talked about it, when I met him on the disciplinary panel was very different from what he shared with me at his place on the 12th of October, which is why I would like to stress that The only person who can account for what he said to me in the specifics of I will not judge you is Mr. yudishe. And then because we both had it together,

Edwin Tong  2:55:10  
all right, we will, I will make a request to Mr. Speaker, the chairman to call Mr. Nothern. So that you can he can testify to that and also corroborate your account. Yeah. But I want to focus on what you said earlier about the difference between what was said on the 12th of October that evening, at his home? And what was said at the DEP. Yeah, there was an intervening period of about five weeks. Yeah. And what I think I understand from you, which I'd like you to clarify, is this, that on a 12th of October, the position taken was we won't judge you, meaning we will be behind you. Will you take a view? And, you know, we know. But on the 25th of November, that characterization changed to one where he is trying to impress upon you and Mr. Nothern, that, in fact, prior to the October sitting, he had told her, and in the words of the CNA report, given her an order, the truth? And that is the difference. Correct? Correct. And if I were to say to you that based on your impression of your interactions with Miss Han, the characterization of the discussion between her and Mr. Singh, as an order to tell the truth would be wrong.

Loh Pei Ying  2:56:27  
Right. Again, I

Edwin Tong  2:56:32  
I know you you have not heard you were not privy to the direct conversation, but I'm asking you to judge it based on what you were told firsthand from his heart.

Loh Pei Ying  2:56:39  
Yeah. And I mean, when he says, I will not judge you, I think in his mind, it's an instruction, perhaps. And that's why he's coming out to say this. But again, if you take that forward at face value, it could go either way. Right.

Edwin Tong  2:56:58  
I mean, that. Yeah. That you've said earlier. Yeah. I think there's a stark difference in the way in which it has been characterized, correct. Yeah,

Loh Pei Ying  2:57:04  
it didn't. So, in my perspective, when he said it to me, I will not judge you that he had told her this. It's, uh, you know, he's saying that, Oh, she acted on her own, you know, and that was the sense he was giving me but as the person receiving that information, in my mind, it could go either way. Yeah.

Edwin Tong  2:57:22  
Well, certainly, mishaan didn't take away from the conversation with Mr. Singh, that there was a direct instruction for her to go and tell the truth. Right. Yeah. I mean, if she had, she would have told you.

Loh Pei Ying  2:57:36  
I don't know if that would be accurate to say that if she had, she would have told me, miss, because I didn't know that conversation took place

Edwin Tong  2:57:43  
until later until later. But let's put it this way. If on the 12th of October, if on top of October. And I think just to refresh on the facts. mishaan spoke to you or communicated with you. And then you destroyed yourself met with Mr. Singh at night, at his home. If there was an instruction earlier, which she breached? That would have been the starting point of the discussion on October, October, right. Correct. But it wasn't. No, it wasn't. Yes. And if miss me, you know, Miss Hahn? Well,

Loh Pei Ying  2:58:23  
I would say decent reasonably well.

Edwin Tong  2:58:27  
And I think you had a well being in your, in your mind. I think you made it very clear from the start. I'm concerned with the well being which which is correct. You would have, she would have come to you, if not for advice, at least for counsel. If she was told by a party leader, to speak the truth and come clean on the top of October, correct.

Loh Pei Ying  2:58:52  
Given how things have been occurring, I will believe that if she will receive the explicit advice prior to the fourth of October, she would have told me

Edwin Tong  2:58:59  
yes. And in fact, you contrast what happened before fourth of October. And what happened before first of November, where her family was concerned where there were issues about the draft, looking over the draft by Mr. Singh mislim. yourself, Mr. Nothern. Miss Karna sell her family. My point is going into an occasion like the first of November where she knew she was going to complete and had to do so was quite a different one from the fourth of October, isn't it?

Loh Pei Ying  2:59:31  
Yeah, it was very different. Obviously, the revelation would be a shock. Like I think everyone understands that. And we understood that the moment she told me the truth, which is why we treated it with great caution. And I would imagine that if you received the instruction prior to the fourth of October, it would have been done the same

Edwin Tong  2:59:50  
way have been done the same way from all of you know of Miss on. I mean had she received instruction prior to the fourth of October. What she did on first of November, she would have done On the fourth of October, correct, she wouldn't have stood there. And you saw the video quite confidently taken a position. Correct. See, the reality is I, I mean, I I believe speaking for myself that it is not plausible nor believable, that mishaan acted in, in this entire sequence of events entirely on our own, without consulting with and getting the advice of senior party members. Yeah. Would you accept that? Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. No, no further questions.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:00:43  
Just two simple questions to follow up, somebody has been covered, just for my understanding. I think coming back again, to the statement that Miss Kahn made with regards to her own background, which is obviously very personal and difficult to make public. There is really no need to go into the fact that that she belonged to a support group. And why she was in a support group was also because of what had happened to her in explaining the context of why she described the story of accompanying that lady. Would you agree that really that is you could actually recount that whole account without going to your own personal details? Would that be a fair comment?

Loh Pei Ying  3:01:29  
She could, but it's not the complete truth. Right.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:01:33  
So from your perspective, shift, that was her reason for wanting to raise this whole issue because of her background. And therefore, she wanted to share that part. As part of the same, I

Loh Pei Ying  3:01:44  
believe what she shared with me, yeah.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:01:47  
Okay. Thank you. The other question, again, I guess, has been sort of raised by Ms. Eben Tom really is this which has come out in the press conference. And you call explain, just wanted to be clear, again, that she was taught on fourth October to come clean and explain. But again, from your perspective, and your interactions with her and communications of her since and also from your own interaction with Mr. Pritam, which Mr. Norton was there as well. You did not get the impression that that was the instructions given for her to actually explain everything on fourth October?

Loh Pei Ying  3:02:32  
Yeah, again, the only the only information I have from their meeting on the third of October, I believe, is that he said those four words to her. I will not judge you.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:02:44  
And I have no further questions. Anyway. Mr. Desperately.

Desmond Lee  3:02:50  
Slow. We heard you mentioned Mr. Mr. Nothern. repeatedly. And you had gone on various meetings together with him. speak to Miss Kahn, within zoom of physically as well as to meet senior party leaders. And of course, to the DP. We're hearing his name for the first time, will you be able to provide his full name and contact details? If we do need to contact him?

Loh Pei Ying  3:03:18  
Yeah, I can. But Mario's will be allowed to speak with him about this, because personally, I wasn't in the process of everything. I didn't expect to be called up here. But I can understand how that happened. Because I'm a secretary assistant. But for Mr. Nothern. I would like to give him some heads up. Yeah.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:03:45  
Misko. So I think in the context of the ICU, as I mentioned earlier, I think the proceedings in the committee of privilege should be kept confidential. Okay, I understand your dilemma. Yeah. And we really appreciate the fact that you have been as forthcoming as honest as you can be. And I understand the emotional burden you bear, because you are trying to share the truth as you know it. But it also means sharing, confidential, confidential conversations you've had with people who we have discussed issues with. But as I explained, the purpose of this is to understand the context, because it is an issue of grief is a great matter. And to understand the reasons why Miss Kahn did what she did. And I think what you have shared has been important and useful. And I think by extension, Mr. Norton would be able to contribute to that. And I think we would, my own sense is that we would contact him to invite him to come before committee privilege to also to be interviewed. But as we've all conversations within a committee of privilege, it is meant to be kept confidential. So I well, I understand your concerns, but you're not Not what has transpired here should not be discussed with anyone else

Loh Pei Ying  3:05:04  
understand? Yeah, I just want to give him a bit of heads up. I,

I, I think he will be definitely willing to come. It's just, you know, PDPA I don't share his details without asking him first.

Edwin Tong  3:05:22  
May I just suggest this I know the usual rules, but I also understand Miss last position. And so I just wonder whether Chairman, we will indulge Miss Lowe and say, you can give him a heads up that he will be called, but please do not discuss anything else about the evidence. Okay. With him? Yeah, no. Any other questions, any other points that you have raised? The reason for this is we also don't want any suggestion that he has been influenced by you, I understand that it's really for the protection of the integrity of the entire process.

Loh Pei Ying  3:05:54  
Okay, I mean, I'm just trying to do the right thing. But which we appreciate? Yeah. But I think I can just provide you the details after this. Because at some point, because you dish, I'm going to use this, you know, why we for interview dish. We have been involved in this. You know, almost from the beginning, we have obviously discussed this between the two of us a little bit. And when it came to my realization prior to receiving the email from Parliament, I did realize that I might be called the provider evidence. We did, you know, enemy that perhaps he will need to back me up. Yeah. So I think he's ready. Yeah. I mean, he's willing to come I won't say he's ready. But he's willing. But yeah, I mean, I can give you his details of that. I just wanted to, you know, do the right thing by asking him for the

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:06:49  
answer. So I think please do let him know. But as mentioned by Minister, I've been told, perhaps not the details, okay. Would there be any other individuals or persons of interest you feel would be able to contribute to our committee's better understanding of this?

Loh Pei Ying  3:07:05  
No, Mr. Nadler is the only one understand

Desmond Lee  3:07:09  
as the chairman just raises the point. This law you had mentioned in response to miss Ivan tongs earlier questions that you are prepared to produce some material to, to corroborate the point that you've made and also to help refresh your memory because you didn't take down all the dates and times and you wanted to be as accurate as you could. Whether you could provide that expediently so that we can proceed with the relevant timelines and information.

Loh Pei Ying  3:07:38  
Okay. Can I just clarify that? Can I just share the parts that are only relevant? And not like, you know, yes, of course. Yeah. Cuz, again, it's the half. Yeah, we, I mean, I'm 30. I'm 30 years old this year, but we know chatter can be quite minor sometime. So yeah,

Edwin Tong  3:07:56  
I'm almost twice agent. So so it's my list. Okay.

Loh Pei Ying  3:07:58  
I mean, yeah, I want to keep things, you know, private if I can. Yes, no.

Edwin Tong  3:08:03  
Mr. We appreciate that. And we respect that. Okay. So we'll leave it to you to sift through, but please do give us anything that concerns the subject matters.

Loh Pei Ying  3:08:10  
I will. Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:08:12  
Any other further questions from members? Okay, then being no other further questions for now? Will there be a need for us to deliberate and this whole Miss

Edwin Tong  3:08:23  
eilbeck temporary, she will not be complete, complete yet until she has provided that side suggests that we don't formally discharge it from the from the attendance. But of course, Misko is free to go now. Okay.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:08:34  
All right. Now, it is just more from a formality perspective.

Loh Pei Ying  3:08:37  
Clarify How am I supposed to provide this evidence,

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:08:41  
our parliamentary staff will contact you, and we will gather the give you instructions, and the forms and so on. And of course, the contact for Mr. Norton. Okay. So There being no further questions for now, I think we would just like to really thank you for coming before the committee. And as mentioned earlier, I know it's not easy, but we appreciate your being very forthcoming in sharing of us, I think has been helpful. A transcript of the proceedings will be shared with you for your own verification. So please do go through it. And if you have any other minor amendments, please make the changes and send the transcripts back to us. Please also note that the transcripts and any evidence given to the committee are not to be disclosed to anyone or publish MSB kept strictly confidential until the committee has presented its report to parliament. Meaning that obviously you are not to discuss what transpired here with anybody else as well.

Loh Pei Ying  3:09:35  
Okay. I just want to cover neither my family right like no my husband's okay.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:09:41  
So, yes. So you may withdraw for now, but do please remain in Parliament House. And we don't need to hold you back further, because we won't be calling you back later. But if we need to, or the later date, we will let you know. And our staff will inform You have the relevant documents to be collected. Okay,

Loh Pei Ying  3:10:02  
so just to clarify, I have to stay here today. No, I

Edwin Tong  3:10:05  
don't think it is to stay here. I just wonder whether you could, in fact, try and surely after lunch, attend to the documents so that we could have them and then we don't end up being protected. Yeah. So I would really appreciate if you could do that. Okay. Okay.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:10:20  
So I'll start a company to the waiting room. So once again, thank you very much, Miss Lowe. Thank you. So gentle alarms, please.

Loh Pei Ying  3:10:27  
Do I keep these?

Edwin Tong  3:10:29  
Leave them here. Thank you. Chairman. Well, Mr. or Miss lotek Sirleaf, I realized I did not all the exhibit so maybe later I'll work with the club to label them so that we have a reference. Okay.

Tan Chuan-Jin:  3:10:44  
Thank you very much.