Gay Cake, National Security and the Talmud

13 July 14 Gay Cake, National Security and the Talmud - Everyday Ethics

‘I've spoken to some people within the gay community this week, who are not necessarily very happy about this case… who say really, this isn't a clear cut case of discrimination. It should be the case, for example, that a Christian Baker, who gets an order from a new atheist group, with an anti religious slogan on the cake should have the freedom in law to say, you know, what, we don't want to be doing that kind of thing. And they say it's more in that kind of category rather than discrimination...

And the big reason argument is, we don't have a problem with you as a person, we have a problem with the message on the cake.'...

‘Let's move to this notion of a Christian bakery... I can understand for example, the idea of an Islamic butchers. You know, where they have, we've got Halal meat only on offer, or or a particular shop with, with Jewish, the Jewish family running it, which is kosher. What makes a business Christian?’...

‘Any business as a Christian is involved in, a Christian cannot leave their faith outside of their work. On the other hand, there's all sorts of things that Christians take take into account when they're when they're trying to live out a life of faith.’

‘So if someone tells me they're a Christian business, I should expect, for example, that they pay a living wage to all their employees.’

‘Yeah, yes, you would expect that they that they act with integrity act with honest with honesty, that you should be able to trust them’...

‘So we could actually, we could find a Christian baker, Pauline, who say, you know, I personally, I don't agree with same sex marriage. But I've got to make this cake as a service to this, to this customer as an act of respect and generosity. They may even say, you know what, personally, I don't agree with this. But I'm going to do this anyway. That that's another equally Christian response to this situation, isn't it a Christian response to the situation?’

‘Possibly. So, I mean, there will also be Christians who would not have any of the issues, I think it's important that we don't see, you know, there is a diversity of opinion within the, within the Christian communities’...

‘Ashers do not open on Sunday... but they market their products through Tesco, which is open seven days a week. Is that an act of hypocrisy?’...

'Churches, for example, under employment law have exemptions so that they can employ people of a certain faith rather than others'...

‘Imagine a Christian company… they have an order from a non Christian religious group, maybe from the local mosque or or synagogue. And they running, the business says, this cake, which would display Islamic teaching or Islamic ideas is inconsistent with our Christian values, we actually believe every faith other than Christianity is a form of idolatry. So we will not engage in that kind of business. Would that be, in your judgment, a legal form of discrimination?’...

‘What about the scenario of a Christian Baker, who knows that the person placing an order for a wedding cake is on their fourth wedding? And they don't agree with remarriage after divorce? And they say, no, we're not going to make your cake for you?... we had this situation when we were debating whether Christians could go to non Christian funerals. It's a typically Northern Ireland issue... you're not endorsing that other religion by merely going to the funeral. You're not endorsing a political campaign in a bakery?'...

'Well, I'm sure that in the past, there have been instances where, you know, the term national security has been abused. However, what I would say is that without it, we would probably all be speaking German at the moment. So we do need to have a system where we look at the greater good, but what the society needs and how we protect ourselves. There are some very nasty people out there, you know, and we do have to keep people safe'...

‘They want to keep that information from us, but they want all sorts of information about us. And they say national security national security national security. David Cameron kept referring a couple of days ago when he introduced us to, paedophiles criminals and terrorists. In that order twice. Paedophiles criminals and terrorists. What paedophiles have to do with this I don't know but what they are doing sort of is using emotive language and scare tactics to spook people into accepting a bowl [?] in what sort of an ordinary democratic terms would never be acceptable’...

'The Bible doesn't give you enough information. The Bible tells you to keep the Sabbath, but it doesn't tell you how you keep the Sabbath. It talks about people who are married, it talks about divorce, it doesn't tell you what a marriage ceremony is. So these discussions are trying to flesh out what I was telling you in a sketchy form and trying to put some stuff on it… its authority, status is probably even more than the Bible. It is the foundational book of Judaism today, because it contains so much information which is the guide to Jewish life. So the Bible is the most sacred book. The book which is consulted most and the book which is followed most is the Talmud…

Its biggest influence obviously has been on the church and and it wasn't always a positive influence. It started off as a negative influence, because for many centuries, the church was, the church still wants to, has to has a mission to convert the Jews. For many centuries, the church couldn't understand why the Jews would not accept the arguments they were putting forward to try and demonstrate belief in Jesus. And eventually they found out the reason why the Jews didn't accept their arguments was because the Jews had their own interpretations which are contained in the Talmud. So the Talmud became an object of vilification for the church. And there are many occasions when the church gathered up all the copies of the Talmud, manuscript copies they could find and burned them, talking about the 12th, 13th centuries. And this opposition... still goes on today...

On the other hand, the Talmud has also had a lot of positive influence. Henry the Eighth, for example, when he wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon, consulted the Talmud to try and find a legal loophole to get it out, him out of his marriage. The early Republicans... used the Talmud to argue that the Bible does not believe in monarchy and the Talmud gives the arguments why the Bible doesn't believe in monarchy'"