A: we do have to acknowledge that not all the writings in the ancient scriptures are conducive / friendly towards religious harmony. Maybe religion itself is anti-religious harmony. One big problem for religions harmony is that intolerence itself is deeply institutionalised, so the only thing for practicers of faith to do in our day and age is to decide for themselves what and what not to believe.
So I think you can pick and choose which part of the bible to believe in and still be a good Christian.
B: Let me put it this way: to be a good Christian, one has to believe in the whole Bible, not just part of it.
Me: Do you believe that slavery is acceptable?
B: The Bible does not explicitly condone or condemn slavery. Remember, slavery as practised within the Mosaic Covenant and slavery in the modern world are quite different.
Read Deuteronomy 15:12-15. Being a slave does not mean slave for life.
"If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today." (Deuteronomy 15:12-15)
Me: That's for Hebrew slaves. Taking slaves from other races/peoples was condoned, and in many situations instructed by Jehovah:
Joshua 9:21-27
2 Samuel 8:2-4
Psalm 2:8-9
Psalm 149:5-8
Jeremiah 21:9-13
Zechariah 14:1-2
B: Joshua 9:21-27
"... woodcutters and water carriers for the entire community."
- When is the profession of woodcutters and water carriers the equivalent of being slaves?
2 Samuel 8:2-4
"Moabites became subject to David and brought tribute."
- Becoming subjects of King David is not the same as becoming slaves.
Psalm 2:8-9
"Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession."
- Please read the verse in context. This verse is a reference to the Covenant of Redemption, the covenant between God the Father and God the Son.
Psalm 149:5-8
"to inflict vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples, to bind their kings with fetters, their nobles with shackles of iron."
- This is a psalm, which speaks of punishment for the evil nations. No where in this psalm did it imply that the kings and nobles would be the prisoners or slaves of Israel. Please refer to Deuteronomy 9:4-6 to get a better picture.
Jeremiah 21:9-13
"Whoever stays in this city will die by the sword, famine or plague. But whoever goes out and surrenders to the Babylonians who are besieging you will live; he will escape with his life."
- I do not see any relevance to slavery at all. The city is a reference to the southern kingdom of Judah which was under attack by the Babylonians. This is in fulfillment of the Isaiah prophecy that the people of Israel will be exiled (refer to Isaiah 40).
Zechariah 14:1-2
"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city."
- Again, this is a prophecy concerning the southern kingdom of Judah. The people of Israel would be taken into exile.
Me: Actually if you want to play the context game biblical literalism falls to bits. For example, Isaiah doesn't talk about a virgin birth for the Messiah, but for some woman living in that time period. Besides which, it translates as "a young woman will conceive" rather than "a virgin will conceive".
Even if you don't want to use KJV (as I do):
Joshua 9:21-27
"... woodcutters and water carriers for the entire community."
- When is the profession of woodcutters and water carriers the equivalent of being slaves?
When you are woodcutters and water carriers for eternity:
Joshua 9:23 - You are now under a curse: You will never cease to serve as woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God."
2 Samuel 8:2-4
"Moabites became subject to David and brought tribute."
- Becoming subjects of King David is not the same as becoming slaves.
No, but considering the context of the verse, when you put 2/3 of a populace to death you're going to enslave the rest, so the translation is disingenuous.
Psalm 2:8-9
"Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession."
- Please read the verse in context. This verse is a reference to the Covenant of Redemption, the covenant between God the Father and God the Son.
Context? What does ruling with an iron scepter and dashing pottery have to do with this then?
Psalm 149:5-8
"to inflict vengeance on the nations and punishment on the peoples, to bind their kings with fetters, their nobles with shackles of iron."
- This is a psalm, which speaks of punishment for the evil nations. No where in this psalm did it imply that the kings and nobles would be the prisoners or slaves of Israel. Please refer to Deuteronomy 9:4-6 to get a better picture.
You bind people in fetters and shackles and they're not slaves? Okay, whatever floats your boat.
Jeremiah 21:9-13
"Whoever stays in this city will die by the sword, famine or plague. But whoever goes out and surrenders to the Babylonians who are besieging you will live; he will escape with his life."
- I do not see any relevance to slavery at all. The city is a reference to the southern kingdom of Judah which was under attack by the Babylonians. This is in fulfillment of the Isaiah prophecy that the people of Israel will be exiled (refer to Isaiah 40).
In a historical context, surrendering would mean becoming a slave.
B:
Actually if you want to play the context game biblical literalism falls to bits. For example, Isaiah doesn't talk about a virgin birth for the Messiah, but for some woman living in that time period. Besides which, it translates as "a young woman will conceive" rather than "a virgin will conceive".
If you study the Bible, you would know that many Old Testament prophecies has double fulfillment; one that would take place in the present and one that would take place in the future. As for Isaiah 7:14, this article "Did Isaiah Prophesy the Virgin Birth of Christ?" provides an excellent explanation.
Even if you don't want to use KJV (as I do)
Actually, I use many Bible translations. When I use the KJV, I occasionally refer to the Strong's Hebrew and Greek dictionary, Thayer's Greek Definitions and Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions for greater clarity. However, for the sake of communicating effectively with others here, I refrain from KJV usage and resort to the NIV translation.
When you are woodcutters and water carriers for eternity:
Joshua 9:23 - You are now under a curse: You will never cease to serve as woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God."
Being cursed does not necessarily makes one a slave. Take for instance, Cain. "Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand." (Genesis 4:11) Joshua 9:23 is like saying, "You are cursed to be a software engineer for Microsoft for eternity."
No, but considering the context of the verse, when you put 2/3 of a populace to death you're going to enslave the rest, so the translation is disingenuous.
Nowhere does the verse say "enslave the rest." The verse says "brought tribute." If you know your history, there were many nations surrounding China that brought tribute to the Emperor of China. Bringing tribute does not make these nations slaves. They were simply recognizing the Emperor's power.
Context? What does ruling with an iron scepter and dashing pottery have to do with this then?
Read Psalm 2:7. "I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.'" Psalm 2:8-9 is God the Father speaking to God the Son.
According to the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary, "His enemies shall be subject to His terrible power (Job 2:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:8), as His people to His grace (Psalm 110:2-3)." The iron scepter denotes severity (Revelations 2:27), while "dashing pottery" describe utter destruction.
You bind people in fetters and shackles and they're not slaves? Okay, whatever floats your boat.
"Fetters and shackles" does not necessarily mean slaves. In the context of the psalm, it likely mean prisoners of war.
In a historical context, surrendering would mean becoming a slave.
Do you know who was surrendering to who? The verse speaks of the Israelites surrendering to the Babylonians. The Israelites were once slaves in Egypt. This does not mean God endorses slavery. If you study the Bible, you would know that God delivered them out of Egypt. In the same way, the Israelites were not in exile forever. They did came back to their land after 70 years of exile.
Me: I could roll up my sleeves and descend into this morass, but this is getting nowhere and more importantly, frankly I'm getting bored.
Just as an example, let me raise this point:
You bind people in fetters and shackles and they're not slaves? Okay, whatever floats your boat.
"Fetters and shackles" does not necessarily mean slaves. In the context of the psalm, it likely mean prisoners of war.
Come, now. In historical times victorious armies did not take POWs. If people were not massacred and were in fetters and shackles, they were slaves. This was long before the Geneva Convention.
Furthermore, even if I were to humour you and assume they were POWs, that does not mean they were not slaves. The Japs used POWs to build the Burma Railroad and other things - is this not slavery?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck - then it must be the god of apologetics.
