Preamble:
What follows is a transcript (run through Otter.ai, with minimal editing - I mostly just tagged the speakers) of the govsg video in the title.
Though speech recognition technology has made leaps and bounds in recent years, it still isn't good enough for very accurate transcripts. So take the below as a free (for you, dear reader, at least) and rough transcript, with no warranty as to accuracy - for convenience instead of an accurate transcript. Nonetheless, I believe this will be helpful, especially for archival purposes.
If anyone wants to do or pay for manual transcription (building on the below or otherwise), that would be great. I'm not going to do 31.5 hours of manual transcription (with more videos almost certainly on the way).
The official transcripts may well come out publicly later. If they do, please use those instead. In the meantime, you may profit from the following; you can find links to all my COP transcripts at the index post.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 0:00
And I'll call the meeting to order. So Genograms please invite Dr. Christopher chalk to the witness table
Hi, my name Chris Sigasi may remove your mask. For the record, please state your name, your occupation and the positions you hold.
Dr Christopher Cheok 0:38
Morning Chairman and members of the committee of privileges. My name is Dr. Christopher Chuck Chang soon. I'm a psychiatrist by training my positions I hold. It's that time the Acting Chief of the Department of forensic psychiatry and I'm a senior consultant at the Institute of Mental Health.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:00
Thank you. The evidence will be given today before the committee will be taken on all for you so desire you can also take an affirmation plugged please administer though.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:19
The Bible on your left hand raise your right. Eye crisper chop chain soon swear that the evidence that I shall give before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help me God.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:36
Thank you. Please be seated. The Committee of privileges is looking into the complaint made by the Leader of the House Miss Indrani. Raja against former member for St. John GRC mysteries con for breach of privilege. Thank you very much for attending to today's hearing, and for your expert evidence before the committee and to answer the questions which members of the committee would like to put to you. You have taken a solemn obligation to answer questions truthfully, if you refuse to answer questions directly, or attempt to mislead the committee such behavior will be an offence and in contempt. This committee also wanted to place it on record that this issue of a review from the psychiatrist was raised by Mr. Pritam Singh as Mr. Lim, and they also had requested for such an examination to be made, or Mishcon. But we appreciate your spending time to evaluate the situation. or Now perhaps hand over to Mr. Desperately for some questions, or perhaps before the questions would you like to perhaps take us through some of your evaluations and then perhaps you take questions from that point on.
Dr Christopher Cheok 2:45
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, I have assessed Miss Klein on two occasions. On Friday, 17 December, and Monday 20th December, I receive a formal letter of request from the Parliament on the morning of Friday 17th of December, and I have also received a bundle of documents from the parliament. Together with this request. I have also interviewed her husband as as required, which by all standard procedures, and this is to obtain corroborative history from the next of kin. I've also watched the recordings of the parliamentary sessions where Miss Kahn spoke on August 3, October the fourth as well as the first of November 2021. And I also watch the recordings of the Committee of privileges when Miss Kahn was testifying on second and third of December 2021. And I will read the reports from this committee that's published on the parliamentary website.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 3:59
Would you like to take us through your assessment?
Dr Christopher Cheok 4:03
My assessment, based on the brief that has been provided to me was that during the times that Miss Kahn spoke in parliament on third August, October the fourth as well as first of November 2021, as well as when she spoke at this committee of privileges on the second and third of December 2021. She did not suffer from any significant or material dissociation during these times. I also like to say that during this period from August to November 2021 She did not suffer from any significant psychiatric disorder that would have impact her ability to testify or speak at such sessions as required for me to assess
Tan Chuan-Jin: 5:00
understand any other further observations you'd like to share with us?
Dr Christopher Cheok 5:05
I'll be happy to answer any questions, because there are many observations. But if I may also like to state that as far as possible in your questioning, I will try my utmost best to protect the privacy of Miss Khan. And unless really required by this committee, I will endeavor to protect her privacy.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 5:27
We appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Desmond.
Desmond Lee 5:36
Thank you very much, Dr. Cheok, for your your assessment that you've just provided, I thought it's important to set out the context, I think the parliament secretary would have given you some background and hence, you went through all the material that was available in the public domain. But as Mr. chairman has said, at the start of this hearing, this committee of privileges has been set up to inquire into the conduct of former Sengkang MP Miss Teresa can when she said some things in Parliament on the third of August and the fourth of October, which allegedly untruthful She's admitted to those untruths. And then the second thing we've been asked to do, of course, is to then assess her level of culpability. And in that regard, the factual circumstances, as well as any potential medical circumstances surrounding what she said in Parliament, would be relevant for determination to then weigh how serious actions were. And in that regard, through the course of the CLP, we've heard conflicting evidence for following the media reports, you'll probably be familiar with what the conflicting evidence pertains to, and the ingest pertain to different accounts of what happened, provided by Miss Kahn and some witnesses, as opposed to Mr. Pritam Singh and some other witnesses. These turns upon whether if and whether she was told to tell the truth in Parliament, or told to, in quoting her WhatsApp message to take the lie to the grave, so whether she was told by her superiors to confess and tell the truth and Parliament and make a clean confession of it, or to maintain the narrative, which is false and continue to lie. And in the context of that, there was a request by one of the witnesses, which is Mr. Pritam Singh, leader of the opposition to ask the committee to assess mental health or mental wellness. And that context, some terms were brought to our attention, such as dissociation or disassociation, and post traumatic stress disorder, because these pertain to what she said about a sexual assault victim. So that is just a broad background. To give you a sense of what this hearing is about, I thought he could help us by giving us a sense of the brief that you were asked to, to carry out in terms of examination. You've just told us your assessment, and then maybe give us a sense of the basis for your assessment. So that no as lay persons on this panel, we have a better understanding. Thank you.
Dr Christopher Cheok 9:07
So I received this formal request from Parliament on the morning of Friday 17 December, and in this letter, they have actually given me the background as to why they have requested this assessment. And they have also provided some information I do not know whether you have a copy of this brief that was given to me. If not, I'll give it to the club. After this what they have said here was that misconduct disclosed that on data report data third November was provided by her psychotherapist Miss Joanna tan, and she works at Adelphi site medical clinic and that she miss can also disclose some information during the Workers Party. Disciplinary Panel on fourth of November. And they wanted us to stay to hear that. Dr. John Bosco Lee had referred Miss Khan to miss Chu anytime for therapeutic support. And these sessions commenced on the 12th. of October. They provided a memo from Mr. Anton that's stated that Miss Kahn suffered from symptoms and I stress again the word symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder. And from my interpretation of what's on the memo, Miss Joanna tan did not state that Miss Kahn had post traumatic stress disorder, only symptoms of and in the email between the I presume the parliament and Miss Kahn, who had requested a memo from Dr. John Bosco Lee. Miss Kahn had replied that when she approached Dr. Lee for memo, she had mentioned that as Miss Joanna Tang was the primary therapist, it was more appropriate for Miss Joanna tan to provide this report. So in this whole assessment, I have not had any sight of any reports by Dr. John Bosco Lee. And in Singapore contexts, any psychiatric diagnosis is typically made by a psychiatrist. So in the brief that was given to me, it was required for me to assess whether Miss Khan was currently suffering from any significant or material dissociation, whether she was of sound mind and rational mind to provide evidence to the committee. And whether she was able to recount rationally and understand the events that transpired on in parliament on third August 4 October, as well as before the committee have privileges on second and third December. And whether this can happen at any stage between August and November 2021 suffered from any significant or material dissociation that would have had an impact on her on her actions during this period. That was what was asked of me.
Desmond Lee 12:25
And so maybe just to tell you that with what TF just told us, at the start of this hearing, you were asked whether she was suffering from any significant or material dissociation, perhaps you share with us what dissociation is for for the benefit of all of us as laymen. And then if you could then repeat your assessment and tell us the basis for that. Thank you.
Dr Christopher Cheok 12:54
So, dissociation is the loss of the integrative function of the human mind. So, in a normal setting, the human mind is able to integrate many sensations, thoughts, processes, ideas, memory, muscle movement, so that the person can function in a coordinated way. However, when a person dissociates, the person may lose one or more of these functions. And in the state of dissociation, this phenomenon is is not caused by a medically diagnosed problem. That is to say, someone dissociates and loses half the power in this body is not due to a stroke that has caused this impairment is actually a psychological reaction that impairs the person's brain function in a particular area of functioning. There are many types of dissociation, some forms of dissociation, can be a person may feel that he doesn't have a sense of himself, he feels like he's outside his body. Sometimes they may feel that when they are looking at something it looks as if they're, they are in a movie, like watching something like in a movie two dimensional and not like three dimensional, other forms of dissociates to say dissociation include a temporary loss of memory, or a temporary loss of particular power in their body. And typically, after minutes or hours, these functions return to that person. Yeah, dissociation can be caused by many reasons. In normal people without any illness, any pathology. Dissociation can happen when a person is in deep prayer, when they're meditating or when they're in a state of hypnosis. When a person consumes illegal drugs, or when they are taking legal anesthetic agents, they also can go into a state of dissociation. When there's a psychiatric illness, such as post traumatic stress disorder, or what we call dissociative disorders, the phenomenon or dissociation can also occur. So what I'm trying to emphasize here is that dissociation is just a symptom. It is not a medical diagnosis. It can occur in normal people. It can be induced by drugs, or it can occur in the context of a psychiatric disorder. Thank you. So
Desmond Lee 15:39
What you're telling us is that dissociation is not a medical diagnosis. It's a symptom that can result from a range of causes, both clinical as well as external due to drug use and, and other forms of action. Yes. So we're trying to focus on what happened on ABC start with third of August when she told the first untruth in Parliament about having a company a sexual assault survivor. Based on your assessment of Miss Kahn, and looking at all the relevant material that you've looked at, what is your assessment again, and what's the basis for that assessment?
Dr Christopher Cheok 16:24
I had viewed the recordings of her speech in parliament that day, and I've also asked her about it. During my interview with her, she said that she, she was present, fully present mentally, when she was giving that speech in Parliament. And when I viewed the videos, there was no sign that she dissociated while she delivered that speech in Parliament.
Desmond Lee 16:52
Okay. Then on you mentioned he looked also at the fourth of Tober, which is the second time she came to Parliament. She was asked some questions by the Home Affairs Minister about third of August anecdote about a sexual assault survivor. And she responded to his questions and in essence, repeated the untruth. What is your assessment of Miss Carnes state of mind or physiology at that point in time
Dr Christopher Cheok 17:24
I open that she actually was really of sound mind she did not dissociate, okay. And whatever she said, she was fit, mentally fit to say what she has said, and he was out of her own will. And she knew what she was doing.
Desmond Lee 17:43
Thank you. Then we come to the first of November, which is third parliamentary speech in respect of this matter, which is the false anecdote about the sexual assault survivor in that. On that occasion, she made a personal statement, explaining or saying that she had told untruths on the third of August and the fourth of October. And she then explained from her perspective, why she had told those untruths. Again, could you share your assessment of men men mental health state at the point in time
Dr Christopher Cheok 18:27
When she delivered that speech on the first of November in Parliament, she did not dissociate during the time that she was giving that speech. I think that during that period of time, from October, from after the fourth of October to the time, she gave that speech, I believe there was some anxiety and you know, some concerns that certain actions that she take will lead to certain consequences. And she had sought treatment with Dr. John Bosco Lee and also with Miss Joanna tan. But on a day specifically on first of November while delivering the speech, she was of sound mind she did not dissociate. And it was very clear from the video recordings that she was present mentally during the time of the speech.
Desmond Lee 19:21
So based on your assessment from the period of August, the third all the way to first of November that is your period of assessment is it or more than
Dr Christopher Cheok 19:33
yesterday appeared as not a way to actually third of December when
Desmond Lee 19:37
you Okay, when she appeared before the committee of privileges let's let's go to the two days in which she was giving evidence before us here and we want to have a sense of whether her evidence before the CRP is has in any way been impacted by dissociation or any other possible mental disorder. or clinical condition. When she appeared on the second and third of December in your assessment, was she suffering from any impairment from mental health conditions?
Dr Christopher Cheok 20:13
And no, she wasn't. She wasn't. Maybe at this point, I just like to emphasize the standard to which we, we use. So competency to testify in a committee or procedures or in court. Typically, from our standard, we say that the person must be able to understand the question, able to recollect the information and able to communicate to the committee or to to the court. And in the Singapore Mental Capacity Act, it is said that a person has mental capacity, when he is able to understand the information relevant to the decision to retain that information, to use our way that information in the decision making process and to communicate that decision. This is our Singapore mental capacity by using this standard, I say our pin that she was fit to testify before this committee on the second and third of December.
Desmond Lee 21:19
Would any form, so in your view, from August all the way to December, which is the period of your assessment. Your view is that she's not suffering from any significant or material or mental health condition. Am I right? That's what I hear from you me?
Dr Christopher Cheok 21:38
Yes, I agree that she does, from the period of August all the way to December the third, she did not suffer from a psychiatric disorder so significant, that it would have impaired her ability to give evidence or to make her speeches.
Desmond Lee 21:56
When when asked by this panel, as to, you know, because, one of the witnesses, Mr. Singh, said that Miss Khan was lying before the COP. And when asked why he thought she could have been lying, based on his assertion, he raised the possibility of dissociation or other mental health conditions that may cause you to lie or predispose you to lie. As a clinician, having examined the the subject Miss Khan and looked at the material, is it possible, is it, I mean, could she be suffering from any mental disorder that predisposes her to telling untruths?
Dr Christopher Cheok 22:44
Erm. She did not suffer from any psychiatric disorder that will predispose her to saying untruths ah. In fact, in I have been in practice for more than 25 years and I found that actually many people with ment-, psychiatric disorders do not tell untruths more than any normal human being. The only time that's perhaps that they have to say untruth is that during finding a job or in social settings, they may have to hide their mental illness because of social stigma. But other than that, they do not say untruths more frequently than any other human being.
Desmond Lee 23:29
So when she was giving evidence before the COP on the second, third December, what you're saying is that testimony was, she was of sound mind, she was able to decide for herself what she wanted to say, or didn't want to say, and not laboring under any mental disorder that would render her testimony. And truthful or not of our own freewill.
Dr Christopher Cheok 23:55
agree with what you said?
Desmond Lee 23:58
Is there anything else you'd like to share with this panel to inform us,
Dr Christopher Cheok 24:03
and I'm happy to take questions.
Don Wee 24:11
Hi, Molly. Dr. John, good morning. So I understand that suspects who commit serious crimes crimes could be put under surveillance while they're undergoing investigation, so that they can feign their mental illness and use it as a mitigating factor. So I would like to see your guidance as to how do you ensure that your interview with Miss Khan is robust enough and able to conclude that she's not suffering from this association? In case she can in case she corroborated the replies in front of you, so as to suit a particular agenda.
Dr Christopher Cheok 24:46
So in our assessment, we follow best practice in our profession, and so the best practice is to interview the person on multiple occasions and in this case, I have seen In her two times on the 17th and 20th, of December, and we also independently interviewed the next of kin. And usually we get someone who knows her well, or has lived with her so that we can ask the person about her behavior outside the clinical setting. In this particular case, it was fortunate that we had video recordings of what, how she behaved in Parliament, the things that she said, and also the COP. Interviews, were also available for me to view. And because all these recordings are contemporaneous their life, it was very, it can easily corroborate my opinion that she did not dissociate at the times that I was required to assess. Thank you. Morning.
Dennis Tan 26:14
In your interview with Miss Khan, did you ask her directly for medical history of any symptoms of dissociation? Or post traumatic stress syndrome? Yes, I did. What was her answer?
Dr Christopher Cheok 26:37
Can I give my summary opinion? rationally?
Dennis Tan 26:41
I'm asking what was her answer to when you answer directly did use, for example, her medical history or what she suffered, whether when she suffered from dissociation or PTSD, what was a direct answer to you
Dr Christopher Cheok 26:55
She had some symptoms of psychological trauma. She had many, there are many times when she felt that she had been traumatized psychologically. And the first time was after the sexual assault. And there were times after the election, as well as of course, after election and because there was certain police investigations at a time she felt psychologically traumatized, but being psychologically traumatized doesn't equate to having post traumatic stress disorder. So she does has symptoms, but it didn't reach the severity that a psychiatrist would diagnose PTSD.
Dennis Tan 27:59
Did you find out from I think you have read from the notes from the proceedings, the transcripts in our data, which were provided, I think you confirm that you read through the evidence they've been given. And you are aware that she had a sexual assault experience. I think it's in 2008. Did you ask her what were the dishes share with you? What were the traumatic effects that that that episode had on her over the past 10 over years? Yes, she did. Could you share with the committee? How would these acts? What were these experience? What what is traumatic experience?
Dr Christopher Cheok 28:47
With due respect, Mr. Tong, I think I would like to protect the privacy of Miss Khan, I would be happy to share with you my opinion about my findings. But I respectfully ask that I don't have to disclose what she has told me.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 29:13
You can just provide your own assessment and opinion that we'll do
Dr Christopher Cheok 29:16
my overall assess opinion is that while she did have transient symptoms of some of some symptoms of PTSD, it was not enduring. It was not persistent. And over the course of 10 years, as you have asked, she did not have symptoms that persisted. And it did not impair her ability to function as a wife, as a mother, and as No, as a member of parliament.
Dennis Tan 29:52
So are you saying that she would have recovered from the trauma of being sexually assaulted?
Dr Christopher Cheok 30:01
depends on what degree you're asking for, I think when any normal human being is has gone undergone a trauma, the memories would never be erased. Certainly, some of these memories can trigger some feelings of anxiety, or disappointment or sadness when we recall it. But it doesn't reach that degree, or that severity that impairs the person. So when you say when you ask about recovery, I would like to be specifically said that she was psychologically traumatized by the incident. However, she did not reach the threshold that one would diagnose post traumatic stress disorder. And she continued as a survivor, she continues to be able to function in her daily life in many multiple dimensions. When we assess we would assess the her ability to function at home, as a parent, as a wife, and also in her occupation.
Dennis Tan 31:13
In your assessment, do you think this trauma that she went through as a result of the sexual assault would still have some effect on her when, whenever she the incident has been raised when she think about the incident, such that she would, it would affect her decision making on the incident, for example, when she decided to lie to the parliament on third of August, that she accompany a sexual assault survivor to the police station when she did not, in fact, do so.
Dr Christopher Cheok 31:59
I think that when a person undergoes a traumatic experience, it would be naive to think that it has left absolutely no mark on the person. However, on the speech on third August, I've, I've been made to believe that this this was a prepared speech. It wasn't something the anecdote that she has mentioned was not set on, you know, impulsively in Parliament, the speech had been prepared and ready. And she had known that that was an untruth. So I in my opinion, she did not dissociate, or there was no psychiatric disorder that would have influence, you know, her judge honor her, her ability and her soundness of mind to write that speech and to deliver that speech.
Dennis Tan 32:58
Are you able to then offer any reason as to why she would suddenly make up a lie like this?
Dr Christopher Cheok 33:06
I don't think it's within the remit, my remit to make such an opinion. And I do not think that this is a, the role of a psychiatrist. Thank you. Okay,
Dennis Tan 33:21
I'm not finished. I'm sorry. I'm not finished yet. Jeremy.
Did you even ask her why she decided to share in parliament on third August about her anecdote of accompanying a sexual assault victim to the police station? Yes, I did. What was her answer?
Dr Christopher Cheok 33:47
She said she was trying to advance the cause of what she believed passionately about, which was women's issues.
Dennis Tan 33:59
So you think her own experience had no part to play in the line?
Dr Christopher Cheok 34:08
What I can say is that she did not dissociate. She was of sound mind. She wrote the speech, she delivered the speech as she had written as to her motivations, and as to why she decided to lie. I don't think it's within my opinion.
Dennis Tan 34:31
And you may recall from the evidence that she actually put in the, the relevant paragraphs on this lie. At a very late stage in her speech, she has already prepared a speech and she put it in at a very early stage. Do you think that there's any reason why she would do so and has this to do with it The fact of experience
Dr Christopher Cheok 35:05
please correct me if I'm wrong. I have been I have tried to as much as possible to watch all the proceedings and, and all that. I'd like to qualify first that the statements that I made in the next few minutes may not necessarily come from a psychiatric opinion, is what I have seen. What I made to believe through the videos was that she had prepared the speech and Mr. Singh had asked her to substitute substantiate it. And perhaps she had written that anecdote in to try to substantiate his her speech.
Dennis Tan 35:48
Yeah, yes, you're right. He was she was asked by Mr. Singh, to substantiate to be prepared to substantiate Yeah, but my question relates to just before the means the fact that she had only squeezing the antidote, very late in time. Right. Do you think that that has anything to do with the trauma that she went through as a victim herself?
Dr Christopher Cheok 36:12
I think she feels passionately about this, cause because of her experience, it the passion probably is communicated in the speech and the topic she's chose to speak on. Yeah, I do not think that her experience of trauma would have directly caused her to want to write that particular anecdote as it was written.
Dennis Tan 36:51
There will be many organized my questions. I have a few more questions.
What tests are typically perform to diagnose dissociation or dissociative identity disorder.
Dr Christopher Cheok 37:15
Okay, Mr. Tang. So, I like to clarify that you you are asking two separate questions. One is to one, A and B. Yes, yes. What test is for dissociation? And the other one is dissociative identity disorder. Okay. Now, for dissociation. Typically, there are no tests, no tests, such as brain imaging that is required. It is about the observations of the witnesses, as well as the description by witnesses as well as the the patient themselves. This is sufficient if it fits the description of this dissociation for us to diagnose the symptom of dissociation. Dissociative Identity Disorder is an extremely rare disorder. Okay? The common name for dissociative identity disorder is multiple personality. Okay. And in my career, I have, I can't recall any seeing any patient that fits dissociative identity disorder, it is that rare. They may exist in Singapore, but certainly I've not come across one in my own practice, dissociative identity disorder, or the Les mentum, multiple personalities comes from typically seen in a person that has gone through repeated childhood trauma, and the person will switch from one identity to another identity and even speaking in different voices, depending on the identity that the person assumes. So, this is a very rare condition, and certainly, Miss Khan does not fit this description.
Dennis Tan 39:21
Would you say that? Can dissociation be triggered by any traumatic event?
Dr Christopher Cheok 39:30
I, if you ask me this in general, yes. A traumatic event can precipitate dissociation. Many times during a sexual assault. I say this in general. Many times during sexual assault the victim the survivor may dissociate because the stress is so great that this is a coping mechanism for the survivor to go through that experience. So yes, trauma traumatic experiences can precipitate dissociation.
Dennis Tan 40:04
So for someone with trauma induced dissociation or dissociated disorder, is it possible for a person to exhibit symptoms whenever the subject or trauma is brought up?
Dr Christopher Cheok 40:18
Certainly in general, yes. To work with these symptoms depends on the person to person. As I mentioned earlier to the, to this committee, there are many forms of dissociation, some people lose their memory, some people lose their mouth, muscle power, some people feel as if they are viewing their world like a movie, others have out of body, they feel that they are not within their bodies, but they're slightly outside their body. So it really depends on the individual.
Dennis Tan 40:50
So would something like false memory creation be a symptom?
Dr Christopher Cheok 40:56
false memory creation can possibly be a one form of dissociation? Yes.
Dennis Tan 41:05
false identity creation,
Dr Christopher Cheok 41:08
alternate identity alternating is part it is possible memory lapses? Certainly.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 41:14
These are general in general in general, right. So I think it's important to note that,
Dennis Tan 41:22
but otherwise, this person can still be high functioning in general, even when the traumatic event is when the traumatic event is not mentioned.
Dr Christopher Cheok 41:32
Certainly an even even a traumatic event is mentioned not everyone dissociates. Yes. I mean, in the literature, in the literature, following a traumatic event, roughly about 1/3 of people go on to have PTSD. It's not that everyone will go on to a post traumatic stress disorder. We as human beings have our own protective mechanisms, through the support of family, friends and us in the people around us. Many people can recover from their psychiatric disorders. So it's not to say that trauma equates to having dissociation equates to having PTSD.
Dennis Tan 42:17
So let me put it another way, can a person with trauma induced dissociation or even PTSD, be high functioning in general, but for prone to memory lapses or false memory creation? When the subject of the trauma kicks in? Is that possible? Okay.
Dr Christopher Cheok 42:35
First, I'd like to refer you and I can provide this to the committee after this inquire after my testimony. And this is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of fifth version of psychiatry illness, okay. Basically, this manual is the criteria that we use to diagnose mental illness and is published by the American Psychiatric Association. One of the diagnostic criteria that we are very concerned about is what we call criterion CI and I write even g g g. Okay, and it states here, the disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational and other areas of functioning, okay. So, if a person is high functioning, okay, then they would not have satisfied criterion G such that they will not be diagnosed with PTS D disorder, I acknowledged that persons undergoing trauma can persist to have some symptoms of psychological trauma, but they will reach the treshold that it will become a psychiatric disorder.
Dennis Tan 44:14
So, you're saying In other words, that in your view, okay, let me put it in another way. So do you agree or disagree that when I say Can a person when I asked Can a person with trauma induced dissociation or PTSD be high functioning in general, but may still fall prone to memory lapses or false memory creation? When when the subject of their trauma is brought up or kicks in?
Dr Christopher Cheok 44:42
I say in general, there is a possibility but we must always contextualize to the person that we are. Speaking about.
Dennis Tan 44:54
I don't know whether you recall in the evidence, I can refer to you if you need to. There was a message that Miss Khan sent to her two assistants. After the outcome of her first meeting on eight August with Mr. Singh, Ms. Lim and Mr. Faisal, where she relates let me go to the document please bear with me.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 45:59
That's what Mr. Dennis Stan is looking for the particular points of a race. Perhaps I could build on. I'll just build on this is related to some of the points made earlier. Mr. Denson was asking questions in general about some possible responses. But clearly from what you shared, there's really a range of responses from individuals who may suffer from this conditions or symptoms of this conditions. And would it be fair to say that one would actually really need to look at a specific subject and specific contexts to be able to provide a more accurate description of how an individual might or might not respond?
Dr Christopher Cheok 46:43
Yes, we really need to contextualize to the individual and how the person responded because really, there is a range of responses following trauma as a range of dissociative experience. And we cannot generalize this whole topic and just speak in general really need to really come down to the details for a particular patient. And thank you, Dennis.
Dennis Tan 47:11
Thank you, Chairman. Okay, let me rephrase my question. Just now, I asked you and I think you you agree generally, that a person with trauma induced dissociation can be high functioning, but fall prone to memory lapses or false memory creation. So, let me let me let me go into a bit of detail about this false memory creation. Would it be possible that when the trauma kicks in a person can be prone to making in a cause of a conversation be prone to having a false memory creation that means basically, somehow certain part of her speech contains certain falsehood, and this is caused by that trauma. So not the entire part of the speech is entirely untruth. But in the in a conversation, she may relate a particular untruth amidst other facts which are not in dispute.
Dr Christopher Cheok 48:21
It is one of the many possibilities for why a person will make such a statement. There are many reasons other reasons why the statement could have been made in that way.
Dennis Tan 48:33
Okay. So can I can I refer you to to the document tap in tap L. Pitch tool. This is the documents are under Miss low paintings. But it's actually a WhatsApp message from Miss can to miss low and Mr. naarden as at page two in the towards the bottom, and is dated eight August? Are we on the same page? And it says, Hey, guys, I just met with Pritam, Sylvia and Pfizer and we spoke about the Muslim issues and the police accusation. I told him what I told you guys, then they have agreed that the best thing to do is to take the information to the grave. They also suggest or write a statement and send out this evening. All right. I think the issue at hand is that it is not in dispute that my son met with Pritam Sylveon FISA. That's the first sentence. Second sentence. They discuss about the Muslim issues and the police accusation that this is not in dispute. And then she goes on to say I told them what I told you guys, and they've agreed that the best thing to do is to take the information to grave so this statement, as you may be aware is in dispute. Mr. Lim sorry, Mr. Pritam. Miss lemon, Miss Faisal, do not agree that they had toe they had agreed with her that the the information that she should take the information to the gray. And then she finished message by saying they also suggest that write statements and this evening. And you may recall this as a statement about where she put on Facebook about the Muslims related issues of her speech, which is not related to the sexual antidote sexual assault and sexual accompanying the sexual the victim of a sexual assault to the police station. And would you agree that this could be an example whereby a person suffering from a certain trauma, right, while still generally high functioning, he could send out a message, but would selectively put in a lie in her statement in her message.
Dr Christopher Cheok 51:01
So now you're speaking specifics or not in general. In this specific instance, in the context of Miss Kahn, and what I've assessed, I disagree with your statement.
Dennis Tan 51:12
But you will agree that in general, a person who suffer trauma would be able to speak generally would be would be high functioning, high functioning. So when he's putting out a statement talking to someone giving a message, that conversation or that particular message can be can contain some falsity myths or the truth within the statement. Generally, it is possible
Dr Christopher Cheok 51:46
in general as possible, but there are also many other explanations why the person may want to give a falsehood.
Dennis Tan 51:54
Thank you. Can I also move on to ask you about other aspects of a when a trauma is mentioned? Is it the case that when trauma is mentioned and a person suffering from PTSD or dissociation it can create a certain distress to this person? Symptoms right, this could be a symptom,
Dr Christopher Cheok 52:35
okay. So, so in specific niskanen does not suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. But in general, what you have said is, is that if you're talking about causing distress when talking about the trauma, I think it is quite understandable in our human experience, that once we have undergone a traumatic experience, we cannot erase that memory. So because it's such a traumatic memory, it's not No, it's not strange that a person will be distressed is someone brought up this bad experience. Now, someone mentions a bad experience people should certainly feel negative about the traumatic experience that's only normal in human beings.
Dennis Tan 53:29
In the evidence that has been given so far. I believe Miss limb and Miss Lim is the Pfizer Mr. Singh has mentioned that in the various meetings they had with her, she had always been emotional whenever the issue of the sexual assault comes up. So for example, I can just relate some of these incidents to you. So she burst into tears so she can emotional every time the incident and was mentioned the sexual assault incident mentioned. On the eighth of August the meeting in August, all three of them mentioned it, I think the the meeting on the 12th of October between with Sylvia and Pritam the end during the two disciplinary panel interviews, and I believe in the CC meeting on the 29th October 30 November How would you reconcile the fact that she's constantly emotional wherever whenever this incident is mentioned during those occasion? How would you reconcile this with your earlier findings that she is not affected by any post traumatic trauma or dissociation.
Dr Christopher Cheok 55:08
I'd like to clarify that my testimony is that she does not have post traumatic stress disorder. I did not say that she did not have some some symptoms of being psychologically traumatized. What I'm saying is that it does not reach the threshold of a psychiatric disorder. Based on the way you have framed your question. I, my opinion is that if she were to be emotional, when ever the topic of sexual assault was mentioned, this is a very understandable, very normal reaction from a survivor of a sexual assault, a sexual assault is one of the most traumatic experience that someone has gone through is a violation of their person. I would be very surprised if anyone can speak about their sexual assault, plainly, carelessly. Without emotion, I think that's even more normal than being emotional when talking about their sexual assault.
Dennis Tan 56:25
So would you say that she while I note that you say that she is not suffering from PTSD, perhaps anymore, but that she would you agree that she is still suffering, and they are still symptoms of her symptoms rather than the condition is that is that your distinction, some symptoms, some symptoms, so she continued to suffer from some symptoms of this post traumatic post on post trauma, post traumatic symptoms, whichever way you call it. So you agreed with that,
Dr Christopher Cheok 57:07
if I may just give an analogy, if I can use the analogy, when a person goes for major exam, a person net anxiety, so they have the symptom of anxiety, you know, it doesn't mean they have generalized anxiety disorder, or panic disorder, which is a psychiatric illness. Yeah. And each time they go, they go for a high stakes exam, they may still continue the anxiety. So in the psychiatric profession, we always put in this criteria that the symptoms, when present must be able to reach that intensity, and that persistence that impairs the person's functioning. So many people who have gone through traumatic experience via sexual assault, a road traffic accident, or physical assault, domestic violence, they will continue to have some anxiety when they speak about a topic or even they watch a news story about another person's trauma. This is these are all normal reactions. But it doesn't mean they are mentally incapacitated by their symptoms.
Dennis Tan 58:19
Thank you. So you're saying that some, some of the survivors have big traumatic events like sexual assault or serious accidents, they may always suffer symptoms whenever the memory of the trauma is invoked, and he can go on for many years. And they may not be exactly suffering from a PTSD disorder. So so to speak, that that is your evidence.
Dr Christopher Cheok 58:48
My evidence is that they may suffer the symptoms, but they may not impair them. I will say that it will be very unusual for person to undergo a traumatic experience, and just erase it and sit if the person told me that they went through a traumatic experience, and then went on to say I focused it all totally, I'll say that it's highly abnormal. It's just a defense mechanism, trying to perhaps compartmentalize or suppress that memory. But if a person talks about their traumatic experience, they're able to talk about it rationally in a measured way, you know, displaying some emotion about it, but of course, not too emotional. I think these are very normal. I mean, it's it's normal human behavior to act in this way. So specifically, I think for MS can even though you know, some of these upsetting memories. She may feel upset by some of these things. It doesn't reach that threshold that would have impact her judgment, impact her decision making capacity, or her reality testing even she She was of sound mind.
Dennis Tan 1:00:02
Would it still be possible that when the trauma is brought up, it would have affected her judgment in such a way that she is capable of false memory creation telling a lie.
In specific,
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:00:24
this specific position
Dennis Tan 1:00:26
is a specific question to applying to Ms Khan.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:00:32
First of all, she doesn't suffer from dissociation. She may have said so, but I think she used the term in a layperson's capacity ah, not from a professional definition of what dissociation is, ah. Okay. So, my, my testimony is that she does not suffer from dissociation or traumatic dissociation for for for that matter. Okay. I do not think that even when she speaks of the topic of her sexual assault was mentioned. It affected her so severely that she lost her mental capacity.
Dennis Tan 1:01:14
Perhaps not losing mental capacity, but lapses of judgment. Telling a lie, for example. Could you exclude that? Indefi-, definitively?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:01:28
Okay. So in the handbook of the Mental Capacity Act, ah, it is said, it is said that people have can make bad judgments ah, and making bad judgments ah, doesn't mean it is due to mental illness ah. It could, any normal human being can make bad judgments ah
Dennis Tan 1:01:45
But it could be due to the trauma. The bad judgment could be due to the trauma
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:01:50
In specific, for this particular instance, I do not think so.
Dennis Tan 1:02:02
Did you ask her how did she arrive at her own admission that she suffers from dissociation?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:02:12
She if I recall correctly, she said that her psychotherapist told her that she had dissociation. I had asked her what does she mean by dissociation? Okay. And her reply made me believe that she didn't fully understand what dissociation was and when she used that term, she did not have a deep understanding of what the term meant.
Dennis Tan 1:02:51
Can I just ask you a few more questions about dissociation? How many categories of dissociation are they?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:03:02
I think there are no real Heisei internationally agreed way of categorizing the different types of dissociation but certainly broadly speaking, there could be psychological manifestations of dissociation such for example, loss of memory, change of identity of feeling that things are not real, a feeling that a person is not within their physical body. So, these are the psychological manifestations of dissociation. There are physical manifestations as well technically we call them a conversion is I mean this is technicalities. And this is when people lose me sometimes half their body sensation half their body power. Yeah. So these are the physical manifestations
Dennis Tan 1:04:09
Would you would you be able to share your understanding about dissociation being possibly conscious or unconscious?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:04:21
I don't understand that question. Okay.
Dennis Tan 1:04:25
Are you are you aware that No, let me let me rephrase this. Sorry about is there a difference between conscious and unconscious dissociation? Are you aware of this?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:04:45
Okay. I don't understand the context in which you're coming from but Auckland, let me answer you. What I understand from your question. Some people can voluntarily tried to put himself into dissociated state this can be done through Do prayer meditation, hypnosis, even through trance in religious ceremonies, when people undergo a trance state, as we see in some of our temples, the Chinese temple sometimes what they call Cal Tang, okay? These these trance states are all dissociative states as well. So if you talk about consciousness, yes, they consciously enter into that state. Yes, some people can also unconsciously go into a dissociative state when there's extreme stress at the need to protect their mind from the stress. So I don't I don't really
Dennis Tan 1:05:37
understand. Thanks. Thank you for an explanation. Let me let me put it in a certain context. Let me go back to how dissociation will affect manifests in the form of line telling an untruth? Where how would you apply the terms of unconscious and conscious dissociation to the fact that a person who suffers from it is lying?
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:06:06
Again, this is a general question Yes. Or no? Yeah.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:06:13
This is a very broad question, because there's so many manifestations, okay. Say for example, a person has say, dissociative identity disorder, and hear about the person the person assumes another identity. So identity, a person may call themself Peter, and identity B, he may call themselves James. Yeah. So, so who is lying? I know, because they have assumed a different identity. Peter may say that he has gone to this particular school X. And James may say he has gone to this particular school why? You know, so, I mean, these are the illustrative examples that I can provide. But I do not think
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:07:03
we are here. Perhaps we have no questions. Let me finish. I think the point here is you're trying to evaluate, and I think the doctor is here to evaluate Miscanthus condition, I understand where you're going with the general questions. But as I explained it to many, many variables, and many circumstances, if it leads to where you would like to go, I mean, that'd be useful. But I thought, perhaps if we could be a bit more specific, who, who I think was to assess her level responsibility, I think, which is what the issue at hand today because I think when you go into the realms of general questioning, there's so many possibilities, and really depends on context. So perhaps, if you could narrow down and be useful, thank you.
Dennis Tan 1:07:45
When I yeah, thank you, Chairman for that. Yeah, I'm sorry, by deeming myself here. Let me try to make it a bit more helpful to you to understand when when the person you were raising a person, as an example, person having an identity, right, so let's say whether it's he's assuming a false identity consciously or unconsciously. There's a difference, right? Is there a difference?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:08:15
It really depends, you know, on status,
Dennis Tan 1:08:16
assuming false. He's assuming a false identity or telling a lie, or he's not even aware. No wonder is there a distinction? As such,
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:08:30
in a case when a person dissociates in a case of dissociative identity disorder, they truly believe that they are that alternate personality?
Dennis Tan 1:08:40
Could it also be possible that when they are suffering from some symptom of dissociation, they knew about dissociation and they make use of this knowledge? As an excuse?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:09:02
Can I clarify is whether if a person knows that this phenomenon of dissociation exists, then he uses it to the person's advantage? Yes. Oh, that would be malingering isn't
Dennis Tan 1:09:12
matter. It's possible it's possible for this dissociation sufferer or somebody who thinks that he is suffering from dissociation to make use of that effect to his or her advantage.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:09:31
I mean, if you say in general then of course, it is possible, but that would be malingering.
Dennis Tan 1:09:39
But these cases do exist. Of course, people do take advantage of that.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:09:43
Certainly.
Dennis Tan 1:09:48
So you but you do not agree that our Ms. Khan suffers from an uncommon conscious or conscious unconscious form of dissociation? Now?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:10:04
I disagree. Yes, she does not suffer from significant dissociation during the periods from August to December the turn
Dennis Tan 1:10:15
the fact that she has been telling people that she suffers from dissociation including yourself, Could it be possible that she's made use of this fact too as an excuse for herself? When she makes a lie,
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:10:34
I think that's beyond my remit. What I can say is that when I asked her what she understood and by the meaning of the word dissociation, it did not fit the medical definition of what dissociation is.
Dennis Tan 1:11:35
Did you ask her about the EMDR therapy that she has undergone? And no, I did not. Did you ask her about any treatment or therapy she has undergone recently?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:11:47
And I asked her why she had seen her therapist says
Dennis Tan 1:11:53
did you could you? Did you ask her about her treatments that she has undergone?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:12:00
She told me she was taking some medications and undergoing psychotherapy.
Dennis Tan 1:12:06
Have you analyzed the treatments of prescription that she has been given?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:12:11
She informed me that she didn't know the name of the tablets that she had been prescribed.
Dennis Tan 1:12:18
Have you sought to make contact with the medical practitioners that have been assisting her? And no, I have not. So you have not seen the medic, her medical records from the past?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:12:33
I think under the the Personal Data Protection Act, I have no access to her medical records. She has stated in the email to Parliament, the email to the Parliament representative that she has attempted to get a memo from Dr. John Bosco Lee and he has from her interpretation has said that is better for Miss joiner time to provide that level. So I have not had any site of any medical report from her psychiatrist.
Dennis Tan 1:13:09
Did you answer whether she undergone any previous psychiatry or psychological treatment prior to August 2021?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:13:18
Yes, I did.
Dennis Tan 1:13:20
Are you able to share with the committee whether she has been undergoing treatment?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:13:24
I respectfully declined to answer that question in respect to respect her privacy I understand.
Dennis Tan 1:13:53
Err, in your professional opinion, um, does Miss Khan harbor feelings of resentment towards Mr. Singh, or Miss Lim as a result of the events of, sorry not Miss Lim, Mr. Singh as a result of the events of third August to first November
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:14:15
Erm. That's beyond my remit.
Dennis Tan 1:14:20
I'm really just asking whether in your opinion, does she harbor any feelings of resentment from your interview and could these feelings have had a bearing on her testimony and Committee of Privilege hearings?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:14:36
That's beyond my remit.
Dennis Tan 1:14:37
Thank you. In the evidence they've been given I will just try to summarize as best as I can. From the perspective of Mr. Singh, Miss Lim and Mr. Faisal certainly
she first let me just set up some facts and then in the context, I'm going to ask you the question. So the facts are a little bit long. But but basically just to remind you that you know, she first admitted to the lie to Mr. Singh on I think seven a bogus when Mr. Singh press T.
There is a dispute in Division event, basically Mr. Singh's Mr. Singh's position to her says that she's got to do with it, she's got to take ownership. Basically, Mr. Singh's position is she's got to be prepared to go to the parliament to admit to the lie, okay. Miss Kahn has a different view of this. But assuming Mr. Singh's position is correct. Okay. So we go down to fourth of October and the second sitting, she then added another lie. She continued to lie. And, and after that she then when she met Mr. Singh and Miss limb that evening, I don't know why remember this? She said to him that, but the Senate path honesty, okay. Yet on 12, October, according to the evidence of Mr. Singh and Miss Lim, when they were meeting at Mr. Singh's request, to prepare or to, to prepare to make an admission in Parliament. She was initially, she initially refused to admit she, she tried to wriggle out of it. And but she was then told that she had to do it, and she agreed to do it. Do you agree that her conduct has been confusing, ie her conduct in not wanting to even coming up to admit her lie for these number of months from August to October? Do you find it confusing? Why would she want to delay this? Coming to terms with this issue and making a decision? What to do about it? Do you find it confusing?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:17:48
Because I don't really know what's the established facts. But I would find it difficult to comment on your question. All I can see is that she was not laboring under a significant dissociation and not laboring under significant psychiatric disorder.
Dennis Tan 1:18:15
Can I just ask you after you have assessed her, right? Yes, you you have you have shared with the committee about your findings. I'm bearing in mind what you said about she is not suffering from PTSD or dissociation. But I think it is not in dispute that I mean, from what you have shared, that she may still be suffering from symptoms, especially when the incident of the trauma of sexual assault is raised each time what would you advise to her as possible treatments are possible measures that she can adopt to minimize any risks to minimize such incidents.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:19:08
I can speak in general about some strategies to cope with some of these things, but I'm not her treating doctor so it's not my place to answer in specific for her because I think this is best suited to be advice from a treating doctor. I'm just the assessor
Dennis Tan 1:19:30
OKAY. Chairman, I have no more question. Exactly.
Zaqy Mohamad 1:19:58
Thank you so much for sharing some of your insights and assessments. In your opinion, I'm just going to move to the period where you know, she delayed a decision to come clean or didn't come clean. So in your opinion, would trauma mental state or her symptoms have affected, you know, her decision making process to hold back for three months being August, October, you know, whether any of these would have been a challenge or barrier to her to come clean?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:20:30
I don't think specifically, trauma in itself would have played such a big role in her decision making to to delay or not to delay. I think there may have been other, you know, priorities or other reasons why she chose to take the actions that she has taken.
Zaqy Mohamad 1:20:52
So Dr. What you're saying is that actually, she has perfectly sound judgments on mine to make that call? She had.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:20:59
Okay, so to be clear, I think she had the capacity to make decisions, whether she made a good decision, bad decision, whether she chose to say a truth or untruth or she was aware that she was taking such a cause of action.
Zaqy Mohamad 1:21:15
Okay, good. Now, just trying to see whether something clouded a judgment innocence. So in your opinion, when, if you were if you were made, if it was made clear to her that she had to come clean early, say in August or September period early, early on, she would have been of sound mind and she could have made perfect judgment to make that call if needed. If it was made clear to her.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:21:36
She could she had the capacity to make the decision of as to what she wanted to do? She wanted to do? Yeah, whether the decision was right, wrong. Good. Not. So ideal. That's a separate issue altogether. Understand?
Zaqy Mohamad 1:21:52
So. So basically, I think, you know, when, if you're suggested to her, that is your cause. So she had perfect judgment in the sense to decide what she wants to do. So it's not impaired by just to confirm not impaired by any of these.
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:22:08
I wouldn't use the word perfect. I mean, she had adequate capacity to make those decisions.
Zaqy Mohamad 1:22:15
Okay. So whether she was asked to lie to delay or to make a call, just to confirm, again, that she would not have been confused, she will not be in a confused state
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:22:29
medical definition confused, she would not have been a in a medically defined confused state that we have impaired has significantly that she didn't have the capacity to make the decisions.
Zaqy Mohamad 1:22:43
Okay. Thank you, doctor, no further questions.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:22:52
Mmm, I'll make some observations. I think, for me to build on what Mr. Dennis Tan was asking, he presented a set of, err, facts. I mean, actually, what we're really trying here to do is to determine what the facts are. Essentially, there are two versions, essentially, could probably boil it down to that. And that's really a dispute. And that's where the COP is trying to determine whether she had in fact been telling the truth, her recount of the instructions and directions given to her. That's one version. The other version is, as Mr. Dennis Tan alluded to, was suggested by Mr. Pritam Singh, Ms Sylvia Lim, and Mr. Faisal Manap who disagreed with her version. So that's another version. We are in the process of trying to determine which, is accurate, which is true. And I guess that's where the question has arisen as to her judgment, her medical, err, condition, mental state, and whether she's been able to make rational decisions. As you've shared, general questions, general responses really vary in the many reasons why people do different things. All of us do many things, as well. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a mental impairment of any sorts. But in your judgment, and what you've shared, and if I were to understand correctly, is that in your assessment, talking to her, talking to her husband, and also going through the footages that have been available during a set period, looking at transcripts, what has been discussed, in your opinion, medically, she doesn't suffer from some of the conditions that, that have been put forward to you. Basically, she is of sound mind, she's able, she's conscious, she's able to make the decisions. Whether they're right or wrong decisions, that's a different matter, all of us make right or wrong decisions all the time. But in your professional opinion, she was aware and conscious of what she was doing. Would that be correct?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:25:02
Yes.
Tan Chuan-Jin:
So I think that really behooves the COP to determine, I guess, in our effort to determine which version seem to make sense. And that's, that's within our remit. But I think we do thank you for your assessment, and I do understand the sensitivity. And I think you have done that, to refrain from going into details where it may not be necessary. I will just want to place it on record. I mean, as someone who for me personally, who supports a lot of work in the mental health front, concerns about mental health, stigmatization about how, perhaps, we could sometimes overmedicalize things, which doesn't help those who actually do have the conditions. Would there be any general observations and comments that you'd like to share with us for our own understanding, and perhaps also for the public understanding as to how we should approach issues like this, because there is always the temptation to, I guess, attribute mental health conditions to individuals for various reasons. But would there be any general sort of comment you'd like to share with us, given the context of what we've been trying to approach and try to address today?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:26:13
I think that many people living in our urban society would undergo different stresses from work family life, and society in general. But just because you have certain stress and emotional symptoms, doesn't mean you have a psychiatric disorder. However, a good proportion of Singaporeans to suffer from some form of psychiatric disorder. And I think if anyone does have a psychiatric disorder, I think it would be very useful for them to seek help. Seeking help doesn't mean going to a psychiatrist, you can also go to a mental health professional in the community. There are agencies out there that there are counseling services in the neighborhood available to them. So I think, most important is seeking help. And I think there is no shame to admit that one is suffering from a psychiatric disorder, or even stress from the normal stresses of of life. But most important is that we are able to support each other and a good number, in fact, the vast majority of people with mental health conditions to recover. And it's important that we didn't support so that they can make a full recovery and get on with their lives.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:27:42
Would you be also correct to say that we should be careful not to, I guess, over medicalize, and I guess over analyze, and attribute conditions to folks, because we all do feel stress and concerns? And would that be something that we should bear in mind because it does also stigmatize those who may actually suffer from such conditions?
Dr Christopher Cheok 1:27:59
Yes, I think we shouldn't use these psychiatric terms loosely. And if EViews were to use the terms, I think we should have a reasonable understanding of what they mean. And not just us use it casually. Because I think a person who truly suffers from a significant psychiatric disorder would feel that the other person doesn't truly understand the experience. And many of these people have told me that when they suffer from a major mental illness, the number one thing that they feel sad about is that they feel lonely, because they feel that no one else can understand the experience and they find it difficult to find someone to relate to
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:28:43
understand. Okay, so with that, there being no other questions, thank you very much for the assessment and showing us your evaluation on Mishcon and, and the terms which we have put forward to you to imH transcript of proceedings will be shared with you for verification do go through it. If any amendments do make changes and Senate transcripts back to us, you have written up any short report, they will make it available to us as well. If there are any. Do note that the transcripts and any evidence given to committee are not to be disclosed to anyone and or publish and must be kept strictly confidential until the committee has presented his report to parliament. There have been other questions. Once again, thank you very much for assistance, you may withdraw and like to ask the sergeant arms to accompany a witness. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you Thanks so much
