Preamble:
What follows is a transcript (run through Otter.ai, with minimal editing - Otter tagged the speakers automatically after all the previous transcripts) of the govsg video in the title.
Though speech recognition technology has made leaps and bounds in recent years, it still isn't good enough for very accurate transcripts. So take the below as a free (for you, dear reader, at least) and rough transcript, with no warranty as to accuracy - for convenience instead of an accurate transcript. Nonetheless, I believe this will be helpful, especially for archival purposes.
If anyone wants to do or pay for manual transcription (building on the below or otherwise), that would be great. I'm not going to do 31.5 hours of manual transcription (with more videos almost certainly on the way).
The official transcripts may well come out publicly later. If they do, please use those instead. In the meantime, you may profit from the following; you can find links to all my COP transcripts at the index post.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 0:00
Please invite Mr a second to the witness table Thank you
stick a seat. Thank you once again for coming back. I like to remind you that you have made an affirmation to tell the truth. The proceedings today is a continuation of last hearing, you are still bound to your solemn obligation. And we refuse to answer questions directly attempt to prevaricate or willfully mislead the committee by providing false evidence, such behavior will be an offence and in contempt. The committee are now called Mr. Edwin Tong, who has a few questions for you. Good morning.
Raeesah Khan 1:09
Good morning,
Edwin Tong 1:10
since you gave evidence to this committee, several weeks ago, we received some additional evidence on the areas that we touched on when you are giving evidence that's in the form of oral statements, evidence before this committee, as well as some documentary evidence I like this morning to show them to you and give you an opportunity to respond to them and ask for your views on this evidence that came to us after you had given evidence. Okay. Now, and I'll try to refresh your memory as to what you said as well. So if you remember, let me know. And we can move quickly. But if not, I'll be very happy to show you the context behind the question that I'll be asking. Okay. Now, you remember you, we spoke about what happened on the eighth of August. In context, there was a day on which you met with Mr. Singh, Miss Lim and Mr. Faisal and Mr. Singh's home. You recall that? Yes, yes. And on this occasion you had admitted, the falsehood, the false had a note to the three of them. And I recall asking you if it was put in very clear terms, remember that he understood you? And I think you said yes. You recall. Yes. Yes. Now, I'd like to just ask you to read certain passages of your testimony to yourself. If you can, please look at the right hand side, there are several bundles, if you can pick up second of December.
And turn please to page 87.
On the top second line, use your recorded essay Mr. Pritam Singh's house, you see that? Yeah, just quickly read this to yourself. And let me know when you're done this page, as well as half of the following page page 88. Yes, okay. Now, in summary, your evidence was that you went to Mr. Singh's house, you admitted to them that what you said on the third of August, as far as the addict was concerned was false. You said that there was some disappointment, anger, but also a lot of compassion. And at page 87, you said the reaction was that if I were not to be pressed, then the best thing to do would be to retain the narrative that I began in August. And you said, in response to my questions, that it means if you can get away with it, we don't need to clarify the lies are correct. You said, I think in the simplest terms, yes, you're correct. And so on. After that meeting ended, you recall that you then sent a message to miss Lowe and Mr. Nava and the evidence that we've heard so far from Mr. Singh Muslim and Mr. Faisal, is that the meeting ended around shortly after 12 meeting was about an hour hour plus, was that also your recollection? Yes. So the message that you send to Mr. Nothern, and which I'd like to show it to you again, if you can't remember, was sent at 12:41pm On that day, and if you can leave the page open and just pick up the submission to the SU p by Miss Lowe on the second of December. This is the WhatsApp messages. Yes. And on the second page at the bottom, you will see the message that was was extracted as a screenshot, and you will see the timing stamp at 12:41pm. You recall that? Yeah. Okay, so leaving that for a moment, subsequent to you giving this evidence we heard from all three of the persons who were present at the meeting. And I like to just show you the evidence that they've given to us. If you can start with the ninth of December transcript, again, on your right hand side.
You have that, Mr. Yes, please turn to page 8109.
You can cast your eye over the next few pages beginning from 109, which is Mr. Pfizer's evidence on what happened on the eighth of August when he when he was present.
You have that discuss over the next few pages and let me know when you're ready right through to page 115? Okay, okay, thank you, Miss Kahn. Now, Mr. Faisal makes two broad points. He says that after you recounted your experience of the sexual assault, he felt very overwhelmed use that word many times in the course of his testimony. And he said that as a result of that, there were no further discussions Relating to or queries on the admission that you made that you told a lie in Parliament. Was that your recollection? No, that's not my recollection. He also says that, in his words, there was zero discussion thereafter, on the question of the lie and what to do thereafter. Is that your recollection? No, that's not my recollection. Mr. Faisal, in your views on on that basis, you would disagree with him?
Raeesah Khan 8:53
I think he's downplaying what the discussion was.
Edwin Tong 8:57
Right. As far as you can recall, can you give us an account of what happened in relation to the admission that you made about the lie?
Raeesah Khan 9:09
After I made that admission, there was of course discussion about my well being, which I think rightly so because I had just shared a very deeply personal experience that I've had. And the discussion that followed was that we would not pursue the matter further. And like in my message, Mr. Singh, use the words take it to the grave.
Edwin Tong 9:44
So the words, take it to the grave came from Mr. Singh. Yes. Are you very clear about that? Is that your recollection? Yes, I'm very clear. All right. And that's the language that you use in the message that you send to Mr. Nothern and Miss Lowe at Till 40 1pm,
Raeesah Khan 10:01
yes, it is not a phrase that I will usually use. So it did not come from Me. All right.
Edwin Tong 10:06
Did he say this in the presence of Muslim and Mr. Faisal? Yes, he did. He did. Understand Thank you. Now, let me show you what Mr. Singh says, If you can, please pick up the bundle, dated 10th December.
And turn please to page 175.
If you can please look at the bottom of the page, I had referred Mr. Singh to the same transcripts of your evidence that I just showed you a moment ago. And if you can see, I made a reference to to December page 87. Those are the same pages I showed you earlier. And if you can go over the page 2176, you will see around the first 1/3 of the page. I had read to Mr. Singh, your evidence. Do you see that? And I ended by asking him would you agree with that Mr. Singh says completely disagree. And I put to her your next few lines. I said. Let me understand the last statement. You see that? Do you see that Miss Carr? Yes, yes. Just read it yourself. Until the portion where Mr. Singh says I'm saying it's completely untrue, and it's a lie. Okay, okay. So Mr. Singh, completely disagrees with your account of what happened at the meeting. Can you give us your response to that? Would you agree, Mr. Singh? He says you're lying.
Raeesah Khan 11:55
I mean, I of course, I disagree completely. I've come here to tell the truth. And I've made an oath to do so as well. And I've never strayed from that.
Edwin Tong 12:07
So Mr. Singh is saying that he completely disagrees with your account, and that your accounts are lie, then you would disagree with that. And as far as you're concerned, Mr. Singh would be lying when he says that he disagrees, that it never happened.
Raeesah Khan 12:19
I'm saying that I'm telling the truth.
Edwin Tong 12:26
Can you carry on reading over to page 177? You recall misconduct. You also told us that Mr. Singh's initial reaction was that this would be something that will be taken to the committee on privileges? You remember that? Yes. And that you said subsequently, the position changed. And you then said it was changed in favor of not raising it if you're not pressed? And to leave it alone? Now, can you look at the next few lines of page 177? The first half of the page, Mr. Singh says that that's not correct. There was no discussion that I recall on the committee of privileges at that point. So I didn't ask him. So we did not tell her even initially that she should go to the committee provision privileges. Mr. Singh says not at that point. And he goes on to say certainly not the committee privileges. I don't know how she recollects this on eight August. But that discussion did not take place because the condition was she was not in a condition. Did. Mr. Singh raised the question of the Committee of privileges on delegation on the eighth of August?
Raeesah Khan 13:41
Yes, his exact words that I can recollect were that my initial reaction or my initial instinct is to put you through the committee of privileges.
Edwin Tong 13:54
As far as you recollect, were those Mr. Singh's words? Yes. Yes. And you then told us when you were last year, that subsequently that position change. Can you recollect what words were used as far as you can remember?
Raeesah Khan 14:08
Once I, once the, the discussion developed, it was that it was it would be best to see to it would be best that it not be brought up forever. I cannot remember the exact
Edwin Tong 14:31
words. Do you remember if either Muslim or Mr. Faisal said anything in this context? No, I cannot remember. Okay. Mr. Singh goes on if you keep the same page. And I then asked him at the bottom near the bottom of this page at 177. And I, again, read to him your testimony, beginning with the words eight August Thank you. So I said the upshot of the meeting Do you see that Yes, yes. And I asked him if you would disagree with that, given his earlier statements, he says absolutely. So on this account, you will also disagree with Mr. Singh. Yeah. Am I right? Yes.
Now, we were told by Mr. Singh and Mr. Faisal and Miss limb, that you left the meeting first. Is that also your recollection? Yes, there is medical action? Yes. As as Mr. Singh was walking you out from his home, he mentioned that he had a conversation with you. Do you recollect that?
Raeesah Khan 15:41
Very briefly,
Edwin Tong 15:43
do you recall what was said? No. He, he informed us that he told you as he was walking out that you should tell your father about this, and that we will deal with this matter. I'm paraphrasing, but to that effect, do you recollect that? No, not in the sliders? No. Was there any discussion at that point about whether you should disclose this to your father to your family? No, no, I was going to say the August meeting. No, no such discussion. Right. The impression that I got at least, from the testimonies of both, in fact, all three, Mr. Faisal, Ms Lim and Mr. Singh, was that you were very emotionally affected, and unable to have a conversation on this issue. Again, can you give us your account of that?
Raeesah Khan 16:36
If I was not able to have a discussion on this issue, then why would I have been left on my own to make a decision as they have claimed, which is not what happened? They, I may, yes. And to use mental illness as a way to discredit someone I think, is extremely out of line.
Edwin Tong 16:57
At the meeting, Mr. Faisal said that after you had calmed down, or you had, again, I'm paraphrasing his words, he then proceeded to have a discussion with you on a statement that he, had been discussing with you concerning clarification or additions to your speech that you had made just a few days prior to that. Do you remember that?
Raeesah Khan 17:18
Yes, exactly. So I was, enough of sound mind to have a discussion about that.
Edwin Tong 17:23
Was there a long break between your admission and the discussion on the statement?
Raeesah Khan 17:28
No it was right after?
Edwin Tong 17:30
Was it at the same location? Yes, same location, same time. Right. Can you give us a brief account of what was discussed about your statement?
Raeesah Khan 17:37
It was discussed that I should, it was discussed that, it, what was discussed was that, what were my views on what the statement should look like? How I felt, as, as a Muslim woman in the community, and what, what the statement could look like, and then I would be drafting the statement with assistance from party leaders.
Edwin Tong 18:01
So some views were exchanged. And Mr. Faisal told us that he had been communicating those views with you by messages prior to the eighth of August. And from what I heard from you some views were exchanged at that meeting. And then you were to take it back and draft the statement. Is that right? Yes. Did you have occasion to clear the draft with any of the other party leaders who are present at the meeting?
Raeesah Khan 18:25
I cleared the draft. Yes, I think so.
Edwin Tong 18:29
Did you discuss the draft on the same day? I assume so because you posted it later that day?
Raeesah Khan 18:33
Yes. We discussed what the content would be.
Edwin Tong 18:39
Did you share your draft with either Mr. Faisal Muslim or Mr. Singh? After the meeting at some point in time after the meeting? And before you posted it? Yes. Did they give you comments to it?
Raeesah Khan 18:49
Yes, they gave some edits here and there. Okay.
Edwin Tong 18:53
Now, you were shown earlier, the message that you sent to Mr. Nathan. Miss Loh at 12:41pm. Can you recall from where you sent this message?
Raeesah Khan 19:08
I sent it from the car.
Edwin Tong 19:11
You drove?
Raeesah Khan 19:12
I know. I can't drive.
Edwin Tong 19:14
And so you sent it whilst you were making your way away from Mr. Singh's home. Yes. Now, I'd like to show you miss. Or perhaps I'll just ask you, if you recall, a few days prior to the eighth of August, I think on the sixth or the seventh, probably the seventh. You had come to be aware from Miss Loh and Mr. Nathan. That they were meeting Mr. Singh on the 10th of August, you recall that? Yes, yes. You had discussed that earlier. And I think we heard from Miss Loh as well. Now, you would have known by the eighth of August, that Miss Lowe and Mr. Nathan was going to be meeting Mr. Singh. Shortly after the eighth of August at a meeting which You will not be present. Correct? Correct. Right. And there was an expectation amongst the three of you that this issue concerning the lie. The lie in Parliament about the anecdote would probably come up, correct? Yes. It eventually transpired that there was some other issue that Mr. Singh wanted to discuss with them. But the evidence we heard from Mr. Doe is that the issue did arise, albeit briefly. And it was quite clear to be slow that Mr. Singh was aware of the lie. Was that also your impression after discussing and Miss Lowe after 10th of August? Yes. What else did you discuss with this law, after which she had she had missed another had met with Mr. Singhal at the end of August?
Raeesah Khan 20:44
I do not recall that we discussed much about be discussed much about it. Just that we would not pursue the matter forever.
Edwin Tong 20:54
Okay. Just to be complete, Miss Lim was shown Mr. Files, testimony, the same portions I showed you earlier. And she says that she agreed with Mr. Faisal, that there was hardly any discussion if at all, on the question of the lie. Would you agree with that? characterization?
Raeesah Khan 21:17
I think hardly at all. No. All right.
Edwin Tong 21:31
I like to refer you to now to third of October, you remember that was a visit that Mr. Singh paid to you at your home? Just before that, between the eighth of August, and the third of October? Did you have any discussion with any of the party leaders about the lie in Parliament and what to do about it? No, he did not. Can you tell us why?
Raeesah Khan 22:00
I think because we assume that it will not be brought up again.
Edwin Tong 22:02
Okay. So on the third of October, Mr. Singh says, and again, our paraphrase that he went to your home, because there was a parliamentary sitting the next day, you had been absent for the September sitting because of shingles. So this is now an occasion where you will be in Parliament. And he said that he had contemplated that this issue might arise. And he went to discuss it with you. Okay, so that's the context of this meeting. Now, I'd like to just remind your what you said to this committee, if you can turn to second of December, again, your transcripts and turn please to page 83.
You haven't Miska? PAGE 83. If you just look at the bottom half of the page. Yes. You said before the October setting, I had a conversation conversation with leader. Do you see that? Yes. You just read it yourself this page all the way through to the first half of the next page? Okay, this conversation that you had with Mr. Singh? Yes. Was it just the two of you? Yes. Just the two of us at your home? Yes. At that time. Were there other people present in your home?
Raeesah Khan 23:47
Yes. So I would like to clarify that. I think when you ask the question, I assume that it meant who was present in the conversation? Yes. But he came with his wife and, and like I mentioned, they came because they wanted to drop off some stuff.
Edwin Tong 24:04
Yeah. From your own household. Were there other people present at home?
Raeesah Khan 24:08
Yes. My mother and I think my father and my, my husband and my brother were there as well.
Edwin Tong 24:15
Okay. It's just that they will not present at the occasion of the meeting where you had a dialogue conversation with Mr. Singh.
Raeesah Khan 24:23
Yes. Because we were seated in a corner. Okay.
Edwin Tong 24:27
Now, can you give us again, the gist of the conversation you had with Mr. Singh is to the best of your recollection.
Raeesah Khan 24:36
Sure. He's T brought it up because he had a feeling that he would be brought up in Parliament again. And that if I were to stick to the narrative, if I were to stick to my position there, there would be no judgment from him.
Edwin Tong 24:55
No, I will ask you some questions from Mr. Singh's testimony, but I'd like to show you what Miss Lowe said about this meeting. Again, to give you the context, Miss Lowe was not present at this meeting on the third of October. But she gave testimony that on the 12th of October when she had miss the nothern met with Mr. Singh, Mr. Singh had recounted what he said to you on the third of October to both of them. And I'm showing you her statements as she recollected directly from Mr. Singh. Okay. The same bundle second of December. And if you could, please turn to page 74.
Oh, no, sorry, I mistake anything it's page 23 Sorry.
Again, bottom 1/3 of the page beginning from Mrs. Lowe saying this is information that I have that was shared with me after fourth October, do you see that? Yes, okay. So just read that to yourself, right through to half of the following page.
Yeah, okay. Okay. At page 24, just round up the point, Miss Lowe said, I don't I did discuss what response she should give. As I said, it was relayed to me that they had a conversation and that conversation was that he had a feeling that she would be pressed about the issue again. And if his response to that was that he would not judge Miss raesha Khan. So that was this last impression from her own conversation with Mr. Singh. Can you give us your comments on that? How would you? Would that be consistent with how you saw it? With his with his account? go against what you said, give us a response.
Raeesah Khan 27:55
I think it is consistent with what I've said. But I would add that he did not give any directive to clarify the lie in Parliament.
Edwin Tong 28:07
Okay. Now, Miss Lim came before this committee, again after you had given evidence. And she also gave evidence both orally as well as with reference some documents, which I'd like to show you. If you could just leave the bundles there where it is, and please pick up from the transcripts of 13 December.
Again, let me give you some orientation Mishcon on the 29th of November, you asked for a meeting before the DEP. You remember, you gave us some evidence of that as well. And you had asked for a meeting because the first meeting had raised questions of your general work and performance as an MP, and you wanted an opportunity to address that you recall? Yes. Okay. So this was, I think, a meeting on the 29th of November in the morning. Miss Lim had taken notes of that meeting, and she told us committee that she wrote it in the first person. So whoever was speaking, she would try as verbatim as possible to record those words. And she also told us that she took notes contemporaneously in her handwriting. So I'd like to show that to you.
If you can pick up the submission made by Miss Lim Do you have a copy?
Sorry misgender plug will assist you with one more copy up thank you oh Miska
Miss can be for you are the documents submitted by Miss Lim when she came before this CRP that was on the 13th of December after you gave evidence. So if you can just quickly cast your eye over the next few pages you will see a hen some handwritten notes. And they are then accompanied by a typed up transcript of the handwritten notes. And you see the first meeting was on the eighth of November. That's the first occasion you had with a DP Correct? Yeah. And then down the page, you will see that there's another transcript of a meeting on the 29th of November starting at 10:30am. You have that? Yes, and that's accompanied by Miss limbs, contemporaneous handwritten notes of the same meeting, which was then typed up. So I'd like to refer you to the second last page of the handwritten notes. At the bottom you'll see a 12 page 12.
You have it, which it should be towards the end of that bundle that the clock had had you earlier. Okay, okay, thank you. So let me just show you the portion that appears at the bottom half of this page through to the next page. And then I'll show you the parts which are typed up, which is makes for easier reading. I wanted to show you that this is how it appears in the handwritten notes submitted by Muslim and if you can then go to the typed up notes of the same meeting and go to the last page. Last page has a reference called binder page 17 At the bottom of the of the page, okay. Okay. So this is from Muslims, handwritten notes. PS which is Mr. Singh. Before October session, I met you and told you it was your call. did need to tell the truth in Parliament occurred to you? RK Yes, but consumed with guilt plus own experience. thought it wouldn't come up. PS can't lie. Right. RK Yes. PS where do you place party in decision making. Now Mr. Singh, confirmed that Muslims notes accurately reflected what he told you at the DEP on the 29th of November. Is that also your recollection? Yes. Sorry. I
Raeesah Khan 34:27
was reading this. Can you repeat your question to time
Edwin Tong 34:30
would you like to read the the preceding page as well? So they have the context. Okay, okay. Now Mr. Singh has confirmed that Miss limbs notes accurately capture what was said by him to you at this meeting on the 29th of November at the DEP. Was that also your recollection that he said these words? No. Can you give us an account of what was said to you
Raeesah Khan 35:58
that if I were to continue the narrative, I will not be judged. That's what he said
Edwin Tong 36:03
to me. That's what he That's what you told us. He said to you on the third of October. Yeah, right. On the 29th of November is a different occasion. You're now before the DEP. And this these notes record what was said, by each of the parties present at the DEP. And Miss limbs notes record, Mr. Singh as saying, Before October session, I met you and told you it was your call, they need to tell the truth in Parliament occur to you, and so on. I'm asking you about the 29th of November now. Okay. Do you recall if these words were said to you on that occasion?
Raeesah Khan 36:40
Yes, I recall this.
Edwin Tong 36:43
You will call this exchange? Yes. Okay. Now, Mr. Singh, when asked about this exchange, says that you got to see the words in the context of the entire discussion. And he pointed us to several other parts of the conversation. But he also agreed that the phrase is your call on its own would mean that Mishcon yourself could make a choice as to whether to tell the truth or to lie if she was asked on fourth of October. Now, in this context, can you let us know if those words were used in the same way on the third of October at your meeting? If so, can you try to recollect the gist. If not, can you recollect what was said by Mr. Singh, on a third of October when he met with you at your home?
Raeesah Khan 37:34
It was not this was not said the way it is here in the transcript.
Edwin Tong 37:41
Based on this recording, yes. Can you explain then what was said and hires put across to you?
Raeesah Khan 37:48
It's been the same that I've I don't have anything else to
Edwin Tong 37:52
add. Okay. So the would I be correct to say that the words in this transcript or tonight on November suggests that it's your choice to make, but the impression and the words conveyed by Mr. Singhal, a third of October did not give you a choice. Was that? Am I accurately summarizing your evidence? He did not put forth that it was my choice to make. And so what did he say to you?
Raeesah Khan 38:17
He said that if I were to continue the narrative, he would not judge me. He did not put it forth as saying you can either tell the truth or you can continue to lie.
Edwin Tong 38:27
Okay. And did he on that occasion tell you that you should tell the truth in Parliament?
No. Now, let me put to you what Mr. Singh told us, again, subsequent to your giving evidence, if I can ask you to pick up Mr. Singh's transcripts that is dated 10/10 of December.
Please go to page 29. Or you can start at the bottom of 28 for the context.
Start with my question with your wife. Can you tell me what happened on this occasion? So read that into the next page 29. Yes, okay. Now, Mr. Singh says, and I'm paraphrasing his evidence that he says he said with you And Toller, meaning yourself. I'm not sure what's going to happen with the anecdote, but it's possible that a clarification will come up. Somebody may ask you something about it. And he says that it is important that you take responsibility and take ownership of the issue. Did he say these words to you?
Raeesah Khan 40:17
No, that's this is the first time I've heard him say these words.
Edwin Tong 40:21
And then he goes on to say, and I did say, and she started getting a bit uncomfortable when I said that, and then I told her, I will not judge you. Did he say that in this way?
Raeesah Khan 40:31
Not in this way. No. And I was never uncomfortable.
Edwin Tong 40:38
You will not uncomfortable about the conversation.
Raeesah Khan 40:40
No, I was not I was in my own home. Yes.
Edwin Tong 40:45
He then goes on to explain that I will not judge you. And I'm reading from page 29. meant I will not judge you meaning yourself Mishcon. If you take responsibility and ownership, that was the gist of the conversation, I didn't get the sense that she was going to be uncomfortable with telling the truth.
Raeesah Khan 41:02
Why would it? Why would I be uncomfortable with with him asking me to tell the truth?
Edwin Tong 41:09
That he asked you to tell the truth on this occasion? No, he did not.
If you go further down the page, and into page 30, and 31.
Just quickly cast over the next few pages and I will ask you some questions. Okay, so at 230 He says, was there anyone in your home? No, there was not. And he says I think she has told a lie. That's not true. I think you covered that earlier. Yes. Right. What you meant was there was people present at home, but the conversation you had with Mr. Singh was a private one. No one else was present in that conversation. Yes. Right. Okay. Then at the bottom of page 30. I showed him what you had said. And he says I saw the transcripts. I was shocked about it. And I want to relate to you that that is that this is not true. And then I went further into what you had said. You see that at the bottom of page 30. Yes. And then at the top of page 31. Not at that point in time, no, not on third October. No. So you disagree with this? Absolutely. If this is what misconcept you will say she is lying answer by Mr. Singh. Absolutely. Can you give us your response to that?
Raeesah Khan 42:40
That I will not lie on oath.
Edwin Tong 42:44
So you will disagree with Mr. Sinks evidence on this? Yes. And you stand by what you said to this committee. Previously, on the second of December, as well as what you've just said to us here about what happened on the third of October?
Raeesah Khan 42:59
Yes. All right.
Edwin Tong 43:07
When Mr. Singh left your home on a third of October, was there any discussion about what you might be saying on the fourth of October? Was there a draft or what you might say? Was there a discussion on how you might approach the issue if it came up? No. No, I like to now move to the fourth of October. On this day, Parliament did sit.
Let me just recap it again. Parliament said at 11am that day by 1230. Pick us we're over. Administer Shanmugam stood up to make a short ministerial statement. You were present in the chamber at that point in time. After you gave evidence, we received a document I think it was from yourself, if I'm not mistaken, on the seventh of December. And it contained a WhatsApp message. I'd like to show it to you. Or if you do recall it the night I wanted to trouble you. On the fourth of October at 12:34pm. A few minutes after Mr. Shanmugam stood up to speak. You sent Mr. Singh a message what should I do? Pritam. Yes, you recall that I recall that. Okay. Why did you ask this of Mr. Singh at that point in time,
Raeesah Khan 44:40
because I was unsure of what to do.
Edwin Tong 44:45
What were you thinking he might say to you?
Raeesah Khan 44:51
Who i Who are
Edwin Tong 44:52
you referring to Mr. Singh? Sorry,
Raeesah Khan 44:54
Mr. Singh. I thought that he would say just Continue and because that was the conversation that we had the night before.
Edwin Tong 45:05
But he didn't reply to you. No, he didn't. Okay, I'd like to show you an excerpt from the video the footage. Can Can the club's SSP, please, I'll just put up a short excerpt of what happened on the fourth of October.
Raeesah Khan 45:43
Thank you Minister for the clarifications. Like I said, it didn't happen to me years ago, and I haven't been successful getting in touch with the person that I accompanied. And, you know, with regards to confidentiality, I would prefer for it to remain that way. Thank you
Shanmugam 46:04
for the station, and the identities of the officers to be extended with Cognos
Tan Chuan-Jin: 46:18
to facilitate the investigation by police to check,
Raeesah Khan 46:21
thank you, I do not know the identity of the police officers
Tan Chuan-Jin: 46:25
with questions of police station, date, etc.
Raeesah Khan 46:29
With regards to confidentiality with the survivor, I do not like to reveal any of this information. Thank you.
Shanmugam 46:36
Police Station confidential.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 46:42
Miss has asked me about the identity of the individual.
Raeesah Khan 46:47
But with confidentiality, I will not be revealing any other information. Thank you.
Shanmugam 46:59
Perhaps the speaker has the power to direct since the case to use a VB code which police station in the month. And if not, there is a month in which police station
Tan Chuan-Jin: 47:20
Miss Khan, I think that's a fair question. Would you like to respond? Are you holding us in position? The reason is that, certain allegations have been made, which I think are fair and serious. And the police I understand would like to follow up to check to make sure that they can rectify the situation. So any useful without divulging the name of the lady.
Raeesah Khan 47:44
Thank you. I'd still like to remain, for it to remain confidential. Thank you.
Edwin Tong 47:49
Okay, let me stop it there. Miss Khan, you, I could see that you brought your phone with you, to the podium to speak, and that you had looked at it from time to time. Can you tell us what you were looking for?
Raeesah Khan 48:03
I was looking for an answer from Mr. Singh.
Edwin Tong 48:08
And when there was no answer forthcoming, you gave those answers. Can you tell us why?
Raeesah Khan 48:14
Because this was a discussion that we have on third of October, the evening before.
Edwin Tong 48:24
Now, Mr. Singh then replied to you shortly after this exchange was over. Again, do you recall it or if not, I can show it to you. I recall the call. In just again to paraphrase he said, we will speak about it later. And to keep chairman and himself informed. Did you have any occasion to meet with Mr. Singh? I know you did at about 11pm That evening, but prior to that, did you have occasion to meet with him or speak to him? I did call you?
Raeesah Khan 48:53
I don't recall. But I recall that we met that evening.
Edwin Tong 48:56
Right. Now, Miss Lim said that she met with you earlier that day in the afternoon. Do you recall that?
Raeesah Khan
Yes.
Edwin Tong
She says that it was around 2pm. Yeah. Can you tell us where you met?
Raeesah Khan
We met at the LO office
Edwin Tong
Was Mr. Singh present? I know. Now, she said she wanted to meet with you for broadly two reasons. One to ascertain your emotional state. And secondly, to give you her view that you should seek legal advice. Yes, again, do you broadly recall those has been the topics of discussion? Yes. How long was this meeting?
Raeesah Khan 49:34
I think it was very short, maybe about 10-15 minutes.
Edwin Tong 49:38
I'd like to show you what Miss Lim said about that meeting. If I may, ask you to pick up Miss Lim's transcripts again
So you go to page 26.
At the bottom, she says I two purposes, what I've just summarized to you earlier. And then she proceeds to give an account of it over the next page or two. Can you just quickly cast your eye over it? Yes?
Yes, okay, now, at the middle of page 27 Muslim says that she suggested to you to get legal advice. You did get legal advice thereafter, did you not? Yes. Yes. She then goes on to say that when I asked her Did you ask her meaning yourself? Why did you repeat the untruth? Muslim said I didn't ask her that. That's also your recollection? Yes. Did min mislim asked you why did you lie? No, she didn't did Muslim ask you. Why not? Tell the truth? No, she didn't. Did Muslim say that there was a sitting the next day on the fifth of October and you could clarify the lie on the next day. She did mean Mr. masscue what you discussed with Mr. Singh?
Raeesah Khan 51:57
I know she didn't I don't think she was aware that we met
Edwin Tong 52:01
right. Now one of the reasons which Mr. Singh and Muslim and to a lesser extent Mr. Faisal offered as to why there was no timeline for you to come to Parliament. To clarify the lie was that you had needed to square the position with a family first to tell them about it. To give you an opportunity to break the news to them first. That was what they told us. Now on this occasion, on the fourth of October, did min Miss Lim asked you if you had told your family about the sexual assault, and whether they were aware that there was a reason why, or at least one of the reasons why you had then made up the anecdote in Parliament?
Raeesah Khan 52:51
No, they didn't.
Edwin Tong 52:55
On any occasion that Miss Lim, Mr. Faisal or Mr. Singh asked you if your family was aware, any occasion prior to fourth of October?
Raeesah Khan 53:03
No, they didn't. Only at the eighth of August meeting
Edwin Tong 53:11
eighth of August when you first recounted experience Yes,
Raeesah Khan 53:14
because they asked me who else knew? Okay, I understand that.
Edwin Tong 53:19
Mystery limb when she was asked why it was not feasible to clarify the lie at the very next setting, which is on the fifth of October. She gave this reason if I can refer you to page 2929 of the transcripts. Just read from the bottom question which I'd framed through to the following page. Okay, okay. Now Miss Lim in summaries, when I asked her why it was not possible to clarify the liar the next day said that it's possible, but it will be a rush to do the clarification on the fifth of October, because they will need time to go and ascertain from you exactly what you want to say. And whether it can withstand scrutiny. Now, eventually, you did clarify the lie on the first of November. And there was a process by which you looked at the draft and revise the draft. In that context, would you agree with this statement?
Raeesah Khan 55:43
I think if I was told to clarify on the fifth of October, I would have.
Edwin Tong 55:50
So the haste that she talks about could be done. If you were told to try for the lie on the next day. Did you think that there was any impediment in terms of whether your family was aware or otherwise?
Raeesah Khan 56:07
It would have been one conversation with my parents. I think the issue would have been if I were to include the personal anecdote in my clarification or not.
Edwin Tong 56:19
But from your recollection, this issue of asking you to clarify the lie on the fourth of October itself, or the next day on the fifth of October did not come up in this conversation. No. Now, later that evening, you did meet with Mr. Singh and Miss Lim, again, at about 11:15pm. We had from you and also from, I think from yourself a series of messages exchanged at around 1115. Do you recall that meeting? Yes. This meeting was also at the LOC office. Yes. With Miss Lim and Mr. Singh present. Yeah. Now, Mr. Singh, told us it was a very short meeting will also be your recollection. Yes. Mr. Singh told us that when you arrived at the meeting, you had a day's look. And that you said these words, and I quote, perhaps there's another way that is to tell the truth. Do you recall making the statement? Yes, I did. She says that you were dazed and somewhat disoriented. Would you agree with that?
Raeesah Khan 57:21
No, I would not agree with that.
Edwin Tong 57:23
Can you explain what you meant with those? By those words, when you said it to Mr. Singh?
Raeesah Khan 57:29
I mean, I meant that perhaps it is. I, I should take the opportunity to clarify and tell the truth.
Edwin Tong 57:37
When you say there's another way, what do you mean by that? Because when someone says there's another way, it contemplates that there is a path or two choices. So can you explain to us in that context, what you mean, as opposed to continuing the narrative? Which was your impression from the conversation of the day before? Yes. So you approach Mr. Singh with these words, what was his response?
Raeesah Khan 58:01
That, if that was what I wanted to do, I should have done it. On the fourth of October.
Edwin Tong 58:10
What did you intend or hope to get from Mr. Singh? By making the statement to him?
Raeesah Khan 58:18
I was hoping for a clear directive to do to either tell the truth or
Edwin Tong 58:27
to in the context of what happened on the fourth of October?
Raeesah Khan 58:29
Yes, yes. In the context of what he said on the third of October as well.
Edwin Tong 58:34
Of course, by this time, on the fourth of October, you had just seen an exchange? Yes, that you had, and it was left off as there'll be further investigations with the police. Right. And it was in that context that Miss Lim then says, get legal advice, presumably because the police were going to be asking questions of you. Yes. So was this statement made in that context, having taken one path from what you had said on the third of October? And now with what has just happened on the fourth of October, you're asking Mr. Singh, for his view on whether there should be another way?
Raeesah Khan
Yes.
Edwin Tong
Do I summarize it correctly? Yes. Is there anything else you want to add to this?
Raeesah Khan 59:15
No, there isn't. I mean, I would like to add that again, he's trying to paint this picture of me as being emotionally or mentally unstable. Which again, I think is, is completely out of line and, and hopefully there's a testimony that would say you know, that I'm of sound mind.
Edwin Tong 59:39
Okay. Your recollection of that meeting on the, in the evening, the night of fourth of October. You were not upset or emotionally, upset is perhaps the wrong word. But you know, to characterize it as you not being in control of your mental emotions or your emotions and your mental state being unstable, and being emotional. I think he said that you were also crying.
Raeesah Khan 1:00:06
I was stressed, but I was not crying. Yeah.
Edwin Tong 1:00:12
All right. He told us that his reaction, or at least one of his reactions to what you said, was to say the words, but look at the choice you've made. Do you recall that?
Raeesah Khan 1:00:22
No, I don't. You don't recall that? Okay.
Edwin Tong 1:00:27
Miss Lim's account of this is similar. And she says that she remembers you talking about another path, which is honesty. And that she said that Mr. Singh responded by asking you if you hadn't already chosen that path by what you've done in parliament that day?
Raeesah Khan
*laughs*
Edwin Tong
Do you recall that?
Raeesah Khan
Yes.
Edwin Tong
And what was your response to that?
Raeesah Khan 1:00:50
I didn't have a response to that.
Edwin Tong 1:00:53
Can you tell us why?
Raeesah Khan 1:00:55
I think because I was shocked because we, I had that conversation with Mr. Singh on the third of October and there was no intention or directive from his part to tell the truth. I think I would have expected that, someone would say that to me if there was a conversation around telling the truth.
Edwin Tong 1:01:18
Mr. Singh's evidence before this committee was that on the third of October was that he said to you to take ownership and responsibility, and that he won't judge you. He also said that he didn't use the words go and tell the truth or clarify the lie in Parliament. But that's what he meant. And he was a no doubt that when he left the meeting, at your home, there was what he had conveyed to you.
Raeesah Khan 1:01:44
I mean, I he never said the words take ownership or responsibility to me and that night.
Edwin Tong 1:01:51
The words were, as you said earlier, continue the narrative, and I won't judge you. Yes. Are you very clear about that?
Raeesah Khan 1:01:57
I'm very clear about that. No.
Edwin Tong 1:02:17
If you was going to clarify the lie in Parliament, which is something you eventually did on the first of October 1 of November, I beg your pardon. And you had come round to that view by around the 12th of October, based on the evidence that we heard earlier. There would have been steps necessary to have been taken in preparation of that. Correct. Correct. And would you have involved Mrs. Lowe and Mr. Northern in those steps?
Raeesah Khan 1:02:45
Yes, I would have why? Because they've helped me from the beginning with some of the speeches I've had to draft. And they, they understand the complexities of the issue, especially about me, bringing up my own experience.
Edwin Tong 1:03:03
Would you also have appreciated that clarification of a lie that was said in Parliament? And by this time, it was two and a half three months ago, that would have a significant adverse impact. Yes. And was Miss Loh and Mr. Nathan, discussing this with you?
Raeesah Khan 1:03:26
Yes. They were discussing about what the negative impacts might be after I make the speech and, and they're very concerned over my welfare. And and they asked permission from Mr. Singh to take over a lot of my social media accounts and some of my emails.
Edwin Tong 1:03:47
Was this it contemplation of the adverse publicity that will arise after first November? Yes, right. Now, can you give us an account of what steps were taken? And how many meetings you had? From the 12? October, all the way through until the first of November, when you actually made the clarification in Parliament.
Raeesah Khan 1:04:09
We had two meetings. One was with the leaders of the party one was with Miss Lim, Mr. Singh, and Mr. Manap and one was just the two of the three of us.
Edwin Tong 1:04:25
How many drafts did you look at an exchange? Do you recall? offhand?
Raeesah Khan 1:04:32
I can't recall. But I think there were three or four drafts
Edwin Tong 1:04:35
Did Mr. Singh and Miss Lim give their views to you on on the drafts?
Raeesah Khan 1:04:39
Yes, they did. I think we had one more meeting as well at I think for the final draft. We had another meeting at Mr. Singh's house.
Edwin Tong 1:04:54
Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman, I go no further questions. No.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:04:58
Any other members have questions? Mr. understand
Dennis Tan 1:05:06
just a very few questions just to clarify. Can you remember the interspeech main parliament on third August? Did anybody help you to prepare the draft? Can you remember?
Raeesah Khan 1:05:22
I worked on it primarily on my own, but because there's a lot of research to do with with the work, but some volunteers contributed here and there.
Dennis Tan 1:05:33
Do these volunteers include Miss Loh Peiying or Mr. yudishe. Now,
Raeesah Khan 1:05:39
for this particular speech, both of them did not assist.
Dennis Tan 1:05:43
Did you, err, check with them the draft before you, before you posted it on the portal?
Raeesah Khan 1:05:55
Not this particular draft, no
Dennis Tan 1:06:04
Thank you. Erm, you told the disability panel that you had postrel- post traumatic stress syndrome and dissociation. Can I ask you-
Raeesah Khan 1:06:14
Can I clarify that point?
Dennis Tan
Sure
Raeesah Khan 1:06:17
I mentioned that I might, so I mentioned that the therapist said that I might have symptoms of post trauma-, traumatic, PTSD. And when I was asked, what symptoms they were, I said one of the symptoms was dis associat-, dis, association. But I never said that this was something that I was going through.
Dennis Tan 1:06:42
Okay. Who, who is this therapist that you're referring to?
Raeesah Khan 1:06:54
The one that sent in the the one that sent in the I don't know if it's a recommendation, or the one that sent in the letter to say that I'm physically fit to continue
Dennis Tan 1:07:07
work. So this was in, in the recent months, right? Yes. Prior to, actually, since the sexual assault incident in 2008. And until August this year, have you ever sought treatment? For any counseling? Any, any help from any doctor regarding any trauma that you might have gone through?
Raeesah Khan 1:07:43
I did see a therapist here and there. And I also went to this woman's group that I mentioned.
Dennis Tan 1:07:51
This therapist that you mentioned, was it in? Is it in Singapore?
Raeesah Khan 1:07:56
Yes, it's in Singapore. But we did not particularly explore this issue. As I thought that I had recovered from it.
Dennis Tan 1:08:04
Did you remember how long ago was that?
Raeesah Khan 1:08:11
I saw someone on and off I think throughout the few years throughout the two years, two and a half, three years.
Dennis Tan 1:08:18
Last two years.
Raeesah Khan 1:08:19
Yes.
Dennis Tan 1:08:20
Did you ever share this with Dr. Choke? Whom you whom I believe you met in the last few days?
Raeesah Khan
Ah, yes, I did.
Dennis Tan 1:08:49
Are you able to share with the committee, what did your lawyers advise you on the issue of whether or not to respond to the police, err, requests for information or interview?
Raeesah Khan 1:09:04
Sure, they shared with me that if any clarification were to be made, they should be made in Parliament, but that I should still respond to the police to tell them that this was my view.
Dennis Tan 1:09:24
Thank you. Chairman, [no] more questions.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:09:29
Any more questions anyone? No. Okay.
If there are no further questions for now, we'd like to thank you, Miss Khan, for coming before the committee again. Transcript of the proceedings will be shared with you for verification. Do go through it. If you have any other minor amendments do make the changes and send the transcripts back to us. Please do note that the transcripts and any evidence given to the committee are not to be disclosed to anyone or public. This show must be kept strictly confidential until the committee has presented its report to parliament. Once again, thank you very much you may withdraw and-
Raeesah Khan 1:10:08
Chairman, may I say something.
Tan Chuan-Jin:
Yes, you may.
Raeesah Khan
I think talking about mental health, especially in this day and age is very sensitive. And to use it to discredit someone, I think sets back our movement to work on mental health and to, to further and you know, things like even that that we're doing called Beyond the Label, to encourage people to seek help when they need. That's all I wanted to say.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:10:42
I fully understand. Thank you very much. And well thank you very much for sharing on some of these fairly personal matters as well. You may be draw such alarms, do a company misconduct. Thank you very much.
