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Showing posts with label forum. Show all posts
Showing posts with label forum. Show all posts

Monday, June 30, 2025

Left Wingers' Bad Faith Arguments

Arguing with left wingers, you realise that at some level, they know that they're lying.

Here is a relatively compact example:

A: KanekoaTheGreat: "It's wild how progressives openly embrace racism"
"Mamdani says 'white neighborhoods' should pay higher property taxes. THE PRICE IS WHITE"

B: Where did he say that though?

A: *pastes screenshot from his manifesto where he says it*
"shift the tax burden from overtaxed homeowners in the outer boroughs to more expensive homes in richer and whiter neighborhoods"

B: Again where did HE say this?
This is just a meme that could have literally been put together by anyone.
Reverse image search just shows this coming from random twitter posts.

Me: This took me 1 minute to find https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iGn9ws9Ds0x_3kkB1tdM2pxLlbkPtT0k/view?pli=1 (Ed: Homeowner Policy Memo)

It's linked from https://www.zohranfornyc.com/platform So you can't use the cope that it's a fake document

B (within less than an hour, IIRC it was within a few minutes): Now read the whole thing instead of taking shit out of context. It explains why “white neighborhoods” are mentioned.
Oh, what’s the matter? Struck a nerve?

Me: I love the super quick pivot once your original cope was proven to be bs
Cope 

 

This also happens with DEI, where I've repeatedly seen left wingers first insist that there's no proof that DEI discriminates against white straight men, then when presented with evidence that it does, will usually immediately pivot and either justify or dismiss this discrimination (i.e. "this is not happening, and it's good that it is"); I had a good albeit relatively protracted example that I couldn't screenshot in time before the thread got deleted. I'm sure eventually another example will turn up.

Saturday, July 20, 2024

"My Precious": Tolkien's Fetishized Ring

This is one of the most impressive pieces of bullshit I've ever read. She quotes BOTH Freud AND Marx, so you know it's going to be especially nonsensical:

"One of the most dramatic scenes in the first Lord of the Rings film, The Fellowship of the Ring, is the Council at Rivendell at which elf and dwarf nearly come to blows, while in a golden glow worthy of a Glassner jewelry advertisement, the Ring shines serenely on, untouched and untouchable. The focus shifts so that the combatants fade to soft-focus, and the ring in close-up fills the whole screen. We are all drawn to the Ring: readers, filmmakers, and a number of contributors to this volume. Although the Ring is a feature borrowed from ancient Germanic and Nordic myth, I shall argue that we are all in thrall to the Ring because of its contemporary relevance to the way we perceive, lust after, and use the "rings" or commodities of our own society. For me Tolkien's text is not an escapist fantasy but a challenging work that "reads" us as fetishists and offers us an alternative model for our relations with the world of things by means of sacrifice and gift.

Stockings, Rings, and Erotic Control

To explain what I mean by fetishism let us return to that cinematic frame of the chastely glowing ring. Like any close-up shot the effect is to separate the object from its context, so that it seems to exist alone. In that sense, every photographic or filmic close-up operates fetishistically in the sense emploved by the psychologist Sigmund Freud. For the fetishist the stocking, the glove, the fur or the individual body part becomes the focus of sexual desire in so far as it is fixed and separated off from any relation with the whole person or body. In his 1927 essay, "Fetishism," Freud attributes this desire for fixity to a refusal to fully accept that one's mother is not all-powerful-or, in Freudian terms, does not have the phallus. In pursuing and possessing an object that stands for his mother, the fetishist is able to own and control this maternal sexual power he both fears and loves. For a deep terror of the female genitals underlies such behavior and the fetish provides a safe substitute for the risky self-giving of the sexual act.

It is interesting that the One Ring of Power, which I want to suggest is viewed fetishistically, is twice gained as a result of literal separation from the owner's body, once by Isildur hacking off Sauron's finger, and again by Gollum biting off Frodo's finger. Separation marks the Ring from its creation, since it is forged by Sauron in secret, and is deliberately hidden from the makers of the other nineteen Rings of Power. Even these beneficent Rings, however, have something fetishistic about them because they were made in order to prevent the loss and decay of beautiful things. In aiming to create preventatives against loss, the elves share the fetishist's desire to fix the object of sexual arousal, so that it is untouched by age, decay, or mortality. We are told explicitly in Tolkien's myth collection, The Silmarillion, that the Noldor elves won't give up living in Middle-earth and yet they want also to have the bliss of those across the Sea in the Blessed Realm (S, p. 287).

There is, of course, an element of fetishism in much sexual behavior, but usually the stocking merely articulates a boundary of difference and is a means to arousal because it creates a distinction between flesh and clothing that draws attention to the naked leg above the stocking-top. For the lover, the stocking recapitulates the pursuit and uncovering of the desired body; for the fetishist, possession of the stocking is an end in itself. In the same manner we see the Ring's owners becoming transfixed by the Ring, rather than using it as a means to their desires. Chillingly, each owner, from the great Isildur to the hobbit Bilbo Baggins, comes to find it "Precious," and impossible to give up. They become as Smaug the dragon, hoarding treasure for its own sake and meeting threat of its removal with violence. Once Gollum becomes the Ring's possessor he finds himself drawn to underground places, and it is deep in the Misty Mountains that he loses it to Bilbo.

Critics have often noticed the lack of sexual activity in The Lord of the Rings. This, I believe, can be explained through the corrosive power of the Ring, which takes the focus away from the romantic quest and subsumes to itself the power of the erotic. Only with the destruction of the Ring can the characters truly love, marry and have children. And those who have borne the Ring for any length of time do not marry at all. While not wishing to send readers off on a genital-spotting expedition through Middle-earth, it is noticeable that Tolkien offers a most convincing Freudian vagina dentata (teethed vagina) in the ancient and disgustingly gustatory spider Shelob. She represents an ancient maternal power that swallows up masculine identity and autonomy. According to Freud, her castrating hold is pre- cisely what the sexual fetishist fears, and seeks to control by his possession of the fetishized object. She must be faced up to and outwitted before the Ring can be restored to the true maternal source of the fiery "Cracks of Doom." Appropriately, it is the equally ancient and yet empowering woman, Galadriel, who earlier renounced the temptation to be the all-powerful female principle, a "She-who-must-be-obeyed," who provides the light by which Shelob may be overcome. If men in the novel must give up fetishism, women must stand down from their frozen idealization, as Arwen does when she renounces immortality to marry Aragorn.

Paradoxically, although the fetish is intended as a means of erotic control-and a means of warding off the castrating female-its importance as the only possible means to erotic pleasure and the self-identity of the fetishist renders him in its thrall as if it were a god, in the manner of the totemic religious practice from which Freud took his original concept. This process is most graphically exemplified in the transmutation of the river-hobbit Sméagol into the craven Gollum. Possession of the Ring by murder of his friend leads to his self-division and alienation, so that he now speaks of himself in the third person, in babytalk- "Don't hurt us! Don't let them hurt us, precious!"- while the Ring is now personified and looked to as a source of aid and protection. Like early Native American totemists, Gollum has figuratively placed his soul inside the fetish for safe-keeping. Without the Ring, therefore, he is literally torn in two, and, as he replies to Faramir, "no name, no business, no Precious, nothing. Only empty" (TT, p. 335).

In his enthrallment Gollum gives the reader insight into the secret of the mighty Sauron himself. When he forged the Ring, Sauron actually placed some of his power inside, to his great cost when it was lost. Now having lost his physical body he lives a wraithlike existence, akin to that of his slaves, the Nazgûl, with his power transferred to the Ring. Indeed, he is now present mainly as an agent of unceasing surveillance, as a giant and lidless eye, which Frodo glimpses in Galadriel's mirror: "the Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing" (FR, p. 409). Like Gollum, Sauron is empty and there is no purpose in his will for power apart from the desire for the Ring itself. Rather, Sauron is completely nihilistic and seeks to reduce Middle-earth to ashes, to render everything as null as himself.

Rings and Things

It is central to Tolkien's conception that it is not just the depraved who fetishize the Ring but anyone who has to do with it, and even those who, like Boromir, merely see it occasionally. One can infer from this that Middle-earth is already a fallen world, enmeshed in evil. That this evil makes its effect through fetishism, however, marks the onset of a relatively recent form of alienation, particular to a modern capitalist economy. Fifty years before Freud's essay on fetishism the term was employed as a central concept in German philosopher Karl Marx's great critique of industrial capitalist economy. His groundbreaking book Capital describes the disconnected and phantasmal nature of our relations with the things we produce. As Marx observes, once a piece of wood is made into a table, it is still just a table, but once in the market "as soon as it steps forth as a commodity it is changed into something transcendent. It not only stands with its feet on the ground, but in relation to all other commodities, it stands on its head and evolves out of its wooden brain grotesque ideas." Any television advertisement showing a nubile woman caressing a car's bodywork provides evidence of our tendency to treat commodities as if they had a life of their own.

Marx went on to argue that in the modern market economy we lose relations between makers and consumers, and are estranged even from the objects of our own labor. Relationships between things are substituted for those between people, and these commodities acquire an idolatrous character as fetishes: they are totally of our own creation but we fail to recognize this. In our own lives this can take the form of a lifestyle constructed by means of designer labels, and of the near impossibility of finding out information about the producers of our clothes and our food.

I am not trying to suggest that The Lord of the Rings is a Marxist text and that Tolkien hoped for the Peoples' Republic of the Shire, but certainly by means of the Ring the novel provides a thoroughgoing critique of our dragonish tendencies to hoard- ing, idolatry, and alienation, the radicalism of which is revealed when put alongside these psychological and economic analyses. Moreover, Tolkien was a devout Catholic and the papal encycli- cals on social teaching in the twentieth century were as critical of capitalism as they were of state socialism. And while secular writers may offer insight into Tolkien's critique, it can be claimed that for an adequate response to the problem of fetishism a religious dimension is important.

For Tolkien, all created things are good, as he states in the myth of creation that opens his Silmarillion. And it is evident from Tolkien's various Indexes to the third volume of The Lord of the Rings that the world of objects is important to him, for he gives an entire section to the category, "Things" (RK, pp. 488-490). Looking down the list of items one finds an unusual combination of those one would expect, such as rings, weapons, flowers, and books, and the unexpected, such as a postal system, battles, meetings, dates, and languages. The reason for the inclusion of such immaterial concepts lies in Tolkien's adoption of a much more ancient usage of the word, "thing." The Oxford English Dictionary gives as its earliest example of the usual modern meaning of "thing" as inanimate object, a reference from 1689.3 Prior to that, a thing meant a matter, an event, even, in Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse and German, a Parliament, as Heidegger emphasizes in his essay on the Thing, "a gathering, and specifically a gathering to deliberate on a matter under discussion, a contested matter." It is from a matter brought forward for important deliberation, an event or experience, that our modern understanding of "thing" evolves as something separate from ourselves, and an object of our perception. In origin, however, there is something inherently com- munal in a thing as a matter between people in a meeting-place. "Thinging gathers," as Heidegger puts it. Today, when we are not in thrall to fetishized objects, we go to the opposite extreme and treat things as inert and of no account. Indeed, the object of desire in the December shop-window quickly loses all aura on the January sale rack.

Tolkien's theology so validates making and creativity that the most important objects in his fictional world are good. The relatively rare bad objects are inevitably dominatory or destructive in character, as, for instance, the Grond, the nasty battering ram named from Morgoth's mace, with an iron wolf-shaped head. Furthermore, there are not very many things in The Lord of the Rings, and the "Things" appendix is much shorter than that for people/creatures or places. After leaving the relatively thing-filled Shire, there are few objects, and most of these are "things" in the Middle English sense of the equipment one takes on a journey. The items taken by the Fellowship are few: food, cooking utensils, water bottles, pipes and pipe-weed, gray elven cloaks, and weapons. The world has been pared down to the few things necessary for sustenance and protection. Thus, the paucity of items renders them doubly precious, as, for example, the rope Sam suddenly remembers he brought from the Lórien boat:

"Rope!" cried Sam, talking wildly to himself in his excitement and relief. "Well, if I don't deserve to be hung on the end of one as a warning to numbskulls! You're nowt but a ninnyhammer, Sam Gamgee: that's what the Gaffer said to me often enough, it being a word of his. Rope!"

"Stop chattering!" cried Frodo, now recovered enough to feel both amused and annoyed. "Never mind your Gaffer! Are you try- ing to tell yourself you've got some rope in your pocket? If so, out with it!"

"Yes, Mr. Frodo, in my pack and all. Carried it hundreds of miles, and I'd clean forgotten it!" (TT, p. 237)

There is a distinctly comic tone to this scene with Sam dancing with delight over the rope while Frodo clings to a cliff-face, and the homely language contrasting with the extremity of the situation. This in no way detracts from the magical quality of the rope, indicated by its silken texture and silvery sheen. As it dangles down it evokes other salvific ropes, such as the line let down by the Biblical Rahab for Joshua's spies that then became the sign to spare her when Jericho was attacked.

With or without literary parallels, the rope has a fullness of presence in this scene. It is prompt when needed, beautiful and useful. Sam accords the rope full appreciation: "It looks a bit thin, but it's tough; and soft as milk to the hand. Packs close too, and as light as light. Wonderful folk to be sure" (TT, p. 238)! Sam refers here to the elvish makers of his rope and he begins to undo the fetishism of things by restoring the relation of object to maker, and the fixed object to potency and use.

Gift-giving and Ring-bearing

It is also important for the full presence of Sam's rope that it was given to him as a gift by the elves of Lórien. Indeed, practically every good object in the whole novel turns out to be a gift, beginning in the very first chapter with Bilbo's birthday party at which, according to hobbit custom, he gives rather than receives birthday presents. Gandalf too provides a gift in the form of fireworks, which in their spectacular self-destruction are a very pure form of gift-giving. Many of the company's weapons are gifts, the very food they eat comes from Rivendell, or Gollum's rabbit hunting (in the closest he gets to human community), or from the lembas of the Lórien elves. Galadriel and Celeborn are primarily gift-givers, whether by sight of the seeing-pool of prophecy or in the magic objects they give Sam and Frodo-the box of super-potent fertilizer and seed and the phial of light.

In granting gifts, Galadriel and Celeborn imitate the actions of the kings in the Norse and Anglo-Saxon sources from which Tolkien derived his Rings of Power. In one such source, the poem Beowulf, on which Tolkien was an important authority, the king, Hrothgar, is called a "ring giver" and he showers Beowulf with presents after Beowulf has killed the monster Grendel. Rings are gifts that bind the wearer to the giver in these ancient tales. And if one receives gold objects as gifts from the true owner, no harm ensues to the wearer.

A prominent example in Norse mythology is the ring, Draupnir, made by the dwarves Brokk and Eitri for the god Odin, which produced eight new rings every ninth night. It was this ring that the desolated Odin placed on the pyre of his son, Baldur, after the latter's death from the mistletoe dart, and which the son returned to his father as a keepsake via Hermod, who visited him in Hel.8 This enriching ring, marked by gift and sacrifice, is not usually mentioned as an influence on The Lord of the Rings, even though it is the only ring in the early sources that is voluntarily renounced. More frequently discussed by Tolkien critics is the dragon Fafnir's ring that was taken by his slayer, Sigurd, which led to his downfall and that of the whole house of the Volsungs.

What these Northern stories of rings show is that a ring stolen curses its possessor, whereas a ring given cements relationships, even beyond the grave. Both positive and negative connotations can be found in Beowulf, in which the hero first receives rings from Hrothgar, later becomes a ring-giver himself, and only dies when he seeks gold rings for his people from a dragon's lair. Similarly, the elven rings in Tolkien are beneficent, concentrating the powers and unity of their bearers, Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf, all of whom were given the rings by others, which frees them from the trace of fetishism involved in the original forging, as does their willingness to sacrifice the power of their rings for the common good.

Letting Things Go

In order to benefit from these gifts, the protagonists of The Lord of the Rings have first to give up their possessions, their homes and families. The Quest of the Fellowship charts an attempt to deal with the fetishism of the object, and to restore relations with people and with things. The only way this may be secured is through acts of self-sacrifice, and by the destruction of the fetishized Ring. Unlike most quests, in which a beloved object is gained, the Fellowship is inaugurated to return the Ring to its place of origin, and thereby to reverse the fetishizing process that cuts it off from context, origin and materiality. The whole process is presented in comic mode in the opening of the novel when Bilbo, who had not been candid in his account of how he acquired the Ring from Gollum, sets about a potlatch scale sacrifice of everything and every object in his life. He throws a lavish party and gives away what remains of his dragon gold to make up for his Sigurd-like possession of it; he gives away his home and its contents, his hobbit existence itself, and goes off like some Indian holy man. Frodo then follows the same path and makes the sacrifice of giving up his happy life in the Shire to bear the Ring. Like the Ring he becomes separate, and is unable to return and be accepted by his own community. He is also badly wounded by the Morgul-knife of the Black Rider. So Frodo does not merely sacrifice the Ring but himself, as he indicates to Sam as they leave for the Grey Havens, "When things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them" (RK, p. 338). Note that it is not just people that are in danger but "things," the whole phenomenal cosmos, and it is all that that he must give up.

Frodo, who gave his life, is then himself given passage to the Undying Lands by Arwen to show that giving up is the means of restoration. And in order to show that an unfetishized life is possible, we are earlier given the example of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, who are notably also the exemplars of romantic fulfilment in the story. They were left out of the films, and are often something of an embarrassment to critics as being extraneous to the epic form of the novel. In my view Tom and Goldberry's difference is deliberate and is important to the novel's purposes in offering a challenge to the fetishism rife in Middle-earth. For Tom Bombadil is the unfallen "master of wood, water and hill" precisely because he does not own them. Rather he receives everything as a gift and is himself a gift-giver, who is first seen bringing water-lilies to Goldberry. That a gift-economy is being opposed to fetishism is made quite plain by Tom's behavior with the Ring. To Frodo's disapproval he treats it with scant respect, throws it up in the air, and can see through its invisibility magic. He treats it, in fact, like a very pretty ring and nothing more.

Bombadil nicely illustrates the distinction Tolkien draws between magic and enchantment in his essay "On Fairy-stories": magic "is power in this world, domination of things or wills," whereas enchantment "does not seek delusion, nor bewitch- ment and domination; it seeks shared enrichment, partners in making and delight, not slaves." There is something cheerfully fictive and enchanted about Bombadil (signaled to us by his talking in verse), and this tells us that we too can transform our world into one of enchantment in which we see things as they really are: rings as pretty pieces of shining metal, and men and women as utterly real and yet utterly mysterious. In contrast to Tom's singing that rescues the hobbits from entrapment, the honeyed tones of Saruman are merely tricks of dominatory magic that fixate their audience so that they do not see what is really going on.

The novel ends, very simply, with Sam's return home from the Grey Havens. His hobbit home is a scene of simple objects appropriately arranged that deliberately recreates the yellow light, fire and waiting woman of Bombadil's house. The great and onerous quest ends with the restoration of the objectified world, which is now freed from fetishism for use:

And he went on, and there was yellow light, and fire within; and the evening meal was ready, and he was expected. And Rose drew him in, and set him in his chair, and put little Elanor upon his lap.

He drew a deep breath. "Well, I'm back," he said. (RK, p. 340)

The objects of fire, food, light, and shelter unite here to signify human warmth and community. By making Sam function as a chair for his little daughter in a family trinity, the text affirms the familial relation of objects to persons. Chairs are only chairs; they have no magical qualities, but they allow human connection-"Thinging gathers." The fetishized Ring is now replaced by the family circle. There is a triumphant emphasis on the word "and" in these two final sentences. Its repetition sets up a rhythm of connections between the different things in the scene that asserts their unity in combining to bless human life.

Now that objects are returned to full participation they can signify themselves. Galadriel's phial caught the light of the star Eärendil, and its magic came from participation in the source of light that Eärendil redeemed by rescuing it from fetishization by warring groups and returning it to its origin. Thanks to all that has gone before to redeem the object in The Lord of the Rings, any light can now have that same quality, when it serves human need and is valued for its utility and its beauty. Hobbits in the story seem to have been invented precisely in order to appreciate this ordinary domestic world of objects, just as the proper end of the ents is to love trees. In one sense, the whole complex nest of invented languages and creatures, histories and mythologies exists in order that, like Sam, we can see the ordinary world in an unfetishized manner. This is the "recovery" of vision that Tolkien himself states is the purpose of the fantasy or fairy-tale. And that he means the recovery of a right relation to objects as intrinsic to this recovery is seen in the following passage:

And actually fairy-stories deal largely, or (the better ones) mainly, with simple or fundamental things, untouched by Fantasy, but these simplicities are made all the more luminous by their setting. For the story-maker who allows himself to be "free with" Nature can be her lover not her slave. It was in fairy-stories that I first divined the potency of the words, and the wonder of the things, such as stone and wood, and iron; tree and grass; house and fire; bread and wine.

Tolkien calls this love "wonder," as a faculty of vision that accords full presence to that which one sees and is challenged by in its otherness. We learn to see things as if for the first time. This wonder is very far indeed from fetish worship because it celebrates the connections that fetishism denies. Treebeard's word for "hill" exemplifies this relationality:

"A-lalla-lalla-rumba-kamanda-lind-or-burúmë. Excuse me: that is part of my name for it; I do not know what the word is in the outside languages: you know, the thing we are on, where I stand and look out on fine mornings, and think about the Sun, and the grass beyond the wood, and the horses, and the clouds, and the unfolding of the world." (TT, p. 66)

In his sign for "hill" Treebeard reconnects the object with the world of phenomena, and of thoughts, and with himself. In ent language an object is signified by the range of its connections by which it achieves its true identity, not by separation, as in hill being defined by those things it is not: "hill" not "rill." Individuality thus comes from the multitude and variety of inter- connections. Again, "Thinging gathers."

The Lord of the Rings, then, is an ethical text that teaches us to give up dominatory and fixed perceptions in order to receive the world back as gift. The novel itself offers an inexhaustible plenitude of things, but they are not self-referential. For the elves, their songs and their gifts originate outside Middle-earth itself in a Blessed Realm just glimpsed by the reader before Frodo disappears forever. This realm is the source of the "light and high beauty" (RK, p. 211) that Sam perceives in the sky above the dreadful plain of Gorgoroth. The wonder and abundance of all the things that constitute Middle-earth have a divine origin, so that, as we leave the novel, we are somewhat melancholy. For we are unable to remain fetishistically fixated by the details of the story, but left rather with a craving for something more: a hunger for breaking our own unnatural attachment to things, a hunger for transcendence itself."

--- "My Precious": Tolkien's Fetishized Ring / Alison Milbank in The Lord of the rings and philosophy : one book to rule them all

Comments from r/counciloftherings:

"Some “Tolkien experts” certainly have some odd takes. Alison Milbank referring to Shelob as a “teethed vagina” gotta be at the top though 😅
Worse than David Day? What do you think? 🤔"

"Freud was a hack who brought 95% of his theories back to sex and sexuality, usually involving the parents of the kids.
A great deal of his ideas have been widely discredited by the psychological community.
So no, Shelob was definitely not some metaphor for teethed vagina."

"Freud has inspired generations to prove him wrong"

"Isn’t incest like the number one most searched genre of porn? As much as I’d love to discredit him, I fear he was right and actually ahead of his time… "

"No. It has some forced popularity since it's comparatively easy to shoot and a fine excuse to for different age combinations between actors. Here are the 2023 statistics:
https://www.pornhub.com/insights/2023-year-in-review"
[Ed: In the US, step mom was #11 in the list and that's not even real incest. There were no other incest terms in the top 14 and it was not in the top 5 categories either nor was it one of the top 5 categories more viewed compared to the world. the Philippines. In France even step mom didn't appear, much less other incest related terms (odd, given France's history with incest). Mexico, the UK, Japan, Germany, Italy, Brazil, Spain, Poland, Australia, Ukraine, the Netherlands, Argentina, Colombia, Chile and Sweden didn't have incest as popular by any measure either. Egypt had step mom at #11/#14 in keywords]

"Someone can make whatever interpretation they want, but so much of literary analysis is really just grasping for straws or applying a framework for the sake of it. Sure you can apply almost any kind framework for interpetation but that doesn't make that particular analysis valuable or relevant except to a niche academic group"

"The author is desperate to convey their intelligence."

You just described 90% of literary analysis"

"I have no words... Not just that Shelob description but this entire paragraph makes zero sense."

" Isildur was married as well (though before wearing the ring). Tom also had Goldberry. Her getting basic lore stuff wrong makes her lose any credibility"

"Her use of “for any length of time” is an academic weasel phrase designed to invalidate any counter examples. Only Sauron, Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo count, because they’re the ones that fit her theory. Everyone else can be discarded because they’re inconvenient to her."

"And Bilbo was a noted bachelor before the Ring... Gollum was an exile (who probably lacked opportunity), and Sauron was a bachelor for thousands of years prior to the Ring. So really only Frodo fits cleanly."

"This is the most absurd and offensive thing I’ll read today. And I say this w confidence in today’s political climate. Lol."

"lol at the emphasis on “Crack of Doom”"

"Why
did it take me so many years to run into this joke"

"Man people will just publish anything these days huh"

"I’m just curious why they asked her to write a chapter. She gets basic lore facts wrong."

"Short answer is that publishing companies are often lazy and academic writers are sometimes desperate to get their name out there (sometimes for vanity but sometimes to save their position or career).
The publishing world (especially in academia adjacent topics) is sort of a weird one. It's mostly who you know until you've established yourself. Sometimes bigger titles are willing to roll the dice on someone if they have solid enough connections. I'm assuming that's what has happened here. I'm in the world of "The Philosophy of Art & Literature" which is sort of a weird half way point between the two disciplines. I was once asked to write a book review for a journal over Bettany Hughes' "The Hemlock Cup" (I believe that's the title. It's been years ago).
I'm all for book reviews, but this is a historian/Archeologist writing about Historical facts uncovered in archeological digs. I had to respectfully decline this ask. They wanted a "Philosopher" to write about this book from a "Philosophical point of view" (whatever that means) because it touched on the life of the Historical Socrates, but it was way out of my realm of study. They asked me because 3 of my other philosopher friends (with whom I'd produced other works) had declined for the same reason. Some folks will simply take whatever writing gigs they can get, give it a go, and fall flat on their face."

""Lack of sexual activity"? Tom Bombadil wanders the forest singing songs about he can't wait to get home and bang Goldberry."

"Right? Plus Gimli the simp/hair fetishist"

"WTF was this author smoking?"

"Not everyone should be an academic. Like this one for example."

"In the list of worst takes on Tolkien I need to mention the Belgian nun Mellie Uyldert. She explains all the symbolism and archtypes from Tolkiens work without any knowledge of the writer.
More info https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Symboliek_van_Tolkien%27s_In_de_ban_van_de_ring
For anyone wo understands Dutch, grab your copy here; https://www.veelboeken.nl/alle-boeken/niet-gecategoriseerd/symboliek-van-tolkiens-in-de-ban-van-de-ring-9789020248340/"

"You know, it's actually cool to just enjoy LOTR and keep your batshit insane takes to yourself"

"The representation of Shelob as a vagina dentata is a nonsense.
First and foremost, Tolkien’s entire oeuvre is deeply rooted in his serious philological studies, mythological leanings, and, above all, in his devout Catholicism, through which overt sexual symbolism is hardly ever his primary concern.
In contrast, Shelob is more straightforwardly presented as a monstrous creature in the tradition of mythic beasts, dragons, and trolls, designed to evoke fear and peril within a high-fantasy context, rather than conveying psychoanalytic themes.
This makes it easier for us as readers to understand Shelob’s dangerous role as a stumbling block for the heroes, mainly Frodo and Sam, to fit into the larger narrative framework of “The Lord of the Rings” as an epic journey full of diverse challenges. Her menace represents just another of the monstrous challenges; among others are the Balrog or the Nazgûl, which stand for emblems of heroism and perseverance, not some act of gendered symbolism.
More significantly, it is the very broad mythological context within which Tolkien elaborates his world and the creatures: among them, monstrous spiders are a symbol of danger and chaos but never directly representing female sexuality.
So, reading Shelob exclusively through the perspective of vagina dentata completely fails to acknowledge the wider mythopoetic and narrative significance that her character holds within the tightly woven universe created by Tolkien."

"Sometimes a giant evil spider is just a giant evil spider."

"This is a shippers desperate attempt to justify applying horny thoughts to a text wholly absent of erotica."

"I'm currently selling tickets to a genitalia-spotting expedition through Middle-Earth."

"Legolas: ARAGORN, WHY AINT WE FUCKIN!!?
Aragorn, Gotta, deliver the ring dude.
Legolas: AH, right...we fuck later?
Aragorn: HELL YEAH, I love you bro!"

Monday, December 11, 2023

TRA nonsense

A - Jo Matter B -Travis Heitkamp C - Adam Cusick D- Wesley Allan E - Myra Hensley F - SImsy G - Kelli Breeton-Fairall **

I recently saw a good example of many TRA nonsensical claims, mixed with the usual contempt:

A: Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia - Scientific American Blog Network

B: this has to be the funniest crap I've read all week. Thank you for the laugh!

A: oh dear. Struggling to read and understand? Learning isn’t for everyone.

The 6 Most Common Biological Sexes in Humans

C: You are talking about chromosomal conditions, Not biological sex. XXXY, as you point out,, Is a chromosomal condition in boys and men.
Edge cases and genetic mutation/deformity do not make a new sex. There are only two sexes.
48,XXXY syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics

A: no. There are a few and some are surprisingly common. When it gets to sex / gender science has long understood the spectrum of complexity around chromosomal/ hormonal etc. very little in nature is black and white because of the complexity of the system. Science understands this.

C: So to be clear, you're taking the position that XXXY disorder is not actually a chromosomal disorder but a valid sex.

A: lol you picked the 1/20000 rather than 1/500 to make a point? Read what I said again. Slowly. “Some are surprisingly common” some are not. That’s what makes a spectrum. Try reading.

btw. That’s still half a million people. Quite a lot right?

C: I picked an example that I knew off the top of my head was a chromosomal disorder and not a valid sex.

Just because a disorder is surprisingly common doesn't make it a valid sex.

It surprisingly common for people to be born with four digits on one hand, that doesn't make that Not an edge case..

But we can do XXY also. '47,XYY syndrome is characterized by an extra copy of the Y chromosome in each of an individual's cells. Although many people with this condition are taller than average, the chromosomal change sometimes causes no unusual physical features. Most individuals with 47,XYY syndrome have normal production of the male sex hormone testosterone and normal male sexual development, and they are usually able to father children.

47,XYY syndrome is associated with an increased risk of learning disabilities and delayed development of speech and language skills. Affected children can have delayed development of motor skills (such as sitting and walking) or weak muscle tone (hypotonia).'

This is also not as sex, this is a genetic disorder.

So back to my original question, is XXXY Not a genetic disorder? Is it a valid sex? XXY?

That's quite a lot of people with a chromosomal disorder, yes. That doesn't make it a sex.

About 1 in 500 people are born with a cleft lip/palate. It's still a medical issue and not a different type of person.

A: personally I wouldn’t call it a disorder. You’re talking about what society deems as “normal” xxy is 15 million people. Are you saying they aren’t normal? And that’s just biological sex. If you’d bothered to read what I provided you’ll see the further complexity of it all. So no. I’m not going to label millions as abnormal.

I think you’re confusing genes that influence the structure of the face with genes that influence sex and gender.
Weird whataboutery.

C: I did read what you provided. The problem is that what you provided is conflating genetic mutations with sex. Edge cases do not constitute a center case. The number of people affected by disorder do not make it valid.

Cleft lip is abnormal, but millions of people are affected by it. Cancer is abnormal, but millions of people are affected by it.

You can continue to play whatever sort of mental gymnastics you'd like, there are two sexes. Disorders which result in mutation and infertility are abnormal. Usually biological sex is defined by gametes. But you know.

Also, the sources you provided weren't very good.

But hey, have a good one. 🙂

A: I would question why you are so desperate to want me to label a difference as a disorder. Who is defining sex as being only two karyotypes? It isn’t science that’s for sure. We’ve learned and adapted. You’re trying to say that it’s akin to a facial deformity that causes a loss of quality of life.
I’d question the mental gymnastics of someone who wanted to do that. And I’d refer you back to my original article.

also other genetic differences - such as red hair are pretty rare. 1-2% population - oh look about the same as trans.
Different / rare doesn’t mean disorder or abnormal. That’s your language and your bias.

D: exceptions don't disprove the rule. There are 2 genders.

A: please read what was provided. There are more than two. At a similar occurrence to red hair

also you’re confusing sex and gender

E: You do not understand what sex is or how it is defined, which is by gonads/gametes.

Gender is outside the realms of science. Scientific endeavors are limited to things we can either directly or indirectly observe and measure in the natural world. Gender is dependent entirely on faith. What is that saying... "Only you can know your own gender?"

This is on the same level as any other religion or ideology. It's perfectly fine to study or explore, but it does not belong in a science classroom.

A: I do hun 🙂
And yes it does.

F: >a chromosomal disorder doesn't make it a sex
They've really been pushing for that lately. Trying to count the margin of errors as valid.

A: wow. Why do you hate so much? No need.

millions of people. It isn’t a disorder

I have no idea what you’re on about. I’m an atheist and a biochemist. I don’t think religion should be anywhere near schools. Nor have I said it should be.

F: >there's millions
Doesn't mean it's still not a disorder and it doesn't make their experience any less valid for being so

A: what makes it a disorder exactly? Is red hair a disorder? Neither are negative.
So please explain why some genetics are differences and others you’d class as a disorder.

E: If gender is a matter of trust and there is no object of measure or evidence for it, then it is a faith-based entity and does not belong in a science classroom. There is zero evidence that there is any biological link between the two, so there's nothing to teach.

There is a reason psychology (which is an appropriate venue) is not part of the natural sciences departments in universities. I didn't say it cannot be discussed in any educational setting, but the biology classroom is not the appropriate place.

Gender theory is modern day alchemy, which also isn't taught in the science classroom. Neither is creationism, ghosts, witchcraft... None of these topics are either verifiable or falsifiable in a scientific context. As a biochemist, you should understand the limitations of science.

D: I don't hate. I'm just not delusional.

A: there’s a ton of papers on this. Zero evidence is a lie. Try reading what was provided.

again your lack of knowledge doesn’t equal what should and shouldn’t be taught.

E: Sex Is Not a Spectrum - by Colin Wright

G: Wow. No bias there. 😂

It can more accurately be described as a bimodal spectrum.

"The Society For Evidence-Based Gender Medicine is a non-profit organization that is known for opposing standards of care for transgender youth and engaging in political lobbying."

"The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is an extremely conservative, corporate-funded, New York-based policy group."

A: lol oh dear. No. I’ll stick to sciemce but thanks.

E: You mean his bias of campaigning to keep pseudoscience out of science classrooms and to define it as such? Yes.

Secondary sexual characteristics are bimodal, sex is binary. End of. I posted a excellent white paper co-authored by a published evolutionary biologist and developmental biologist that does a brilliant job of explaining this, but you'd rather Google him. I enviurage you to dig into JSTOR and read some of his other published articles. He studies arachnids.

Do you have anything written by a developmental or evolutionary biologist you can share? I spend half my week reading journals and white papers, so I'll gladly add them to my reading list.

Man are you are proving up right. This is precisely the reason Dr. Wright started his organization. You do not understand bias. He has nothing to gain by putting his entire career on the line.

Why are you trusting an opinion piece by a neurobiologist (not experts in sex) who identifies as trans. Not only do you not understand sex, you do not understand bias.

I posted a different article above with Sir Richard Dawkins, one of my inspirations.

G: He left academia a few years ago. What career are you talking about? His blog? Making the rounds on various social media outlets and podcasts? Rubbing elbows with Ben Shapiro, et al.? He may have "PhD" after his name, which he uses for clout, but he is not working in science any more.

E: You argue the validity of the man's chatacter based on the shows who have actually ALLOWED him to speak because you can't argue against his claims with any evidence or reasoning to reject them. It's the same tactic used by activists- "I don't like what you say, so I'll label you a bigot who spews hate speech." It's pathetic and transparent.

Rather bold to tell someone whose academic research focused on sexual reproduction to discount my entire academic career and the vast works of other biologists without providing any evidence or logical reasoning for doing so.

There is one thing that Ben Shapiro has right. Facts really don't care about your opinions.

Saturday, November 04, 2023

Soy Sauce

I asked about the differences between Lee Kum Kee soy sauces, and got lots of answers:

"Chinese soy sauce is made of 100% soy. Japanese soy is made of a mixture of soy and wheat. Light soy sauce is for flavouring your rice, or adding to your already prepared food. Dark soy sauce thicker and a bit sweet, mainly for adding color... the premium stuff is often labelled as such because it's the first batch harvested after the fermentation process . They kinda treat it like whiskey. Each subsequent harvest lowers the "quality" and cannot be labelled premium. Kum Chun is made with wheat." (I looked at the ingredients of the "premium" version and it has wheat flour, so)

"A lot of people seem to not know this, but light soy sauce actually tastes saltier than dark soy sauce due to the sugar and stronger soy flavour masking the salt in dark soy sauce. So don't let the colour and viscosity fool you when thinking of what soy sauce to use."

"“Premium” soy sauce is LKK’s original. “Kum Chun” is their cheaper “value” option, I suspect to compete with the more affordable (mainland) Chinese brands. Lower soybean content (Premium is about 17% as per their website). Theoretically there would be a difference in taste - less richness/depth, more straight saltiness or even MSG umami. Whether it makes a difference depends on your palate and what you’re using it for.
There are also a few cheaper grades you can sometimes see in Asian supermarkets - these are usually in Chinese packaging and are mainly tailored to HK/PRC local markets and foodservice."

"Basically:
Dark soy = thicker, sweeter, has added molasses, has more sodium & sugar. Used for braises and marinades.
Regular or light soy = thinner, lighter colour. Good for everyday use.
Premium = “first press” (the virgin olive oil equivalent of soy sauce), more complex flavours than light. Think of it as Light+ I suppose?
I think Kum chun is the same as dark soy...
superior is a kind of light soy. Looks like it has less ingredients and contains high fructose corn syrup + sweetener instead of sugar."

"At least within Chinese brands, any soy sauce is usually a type of “light soy sauce” (生抽) and can be used in most cooking applications interchangeably. Different variations (premium, kum chun) won’t really change ur dish too too much unless u are somehow using huge quantities. Just don’t use “dark soy sauce” (老抽) as a substitute where any recipe says just “soy sauce” or “light soy sauce.” Dark soy sauce has a very strong flavor and is usually used to mainly add color. A lot of Chinese ppl will also use Japanese soy sauce as their go-to soy sauce/“light soy sauce,” since Japanese soy sauce tends not to have any characteristics that will clash with dishes across many cuisines. U can also use tamari as someone else mentioned, but it is noticeably richer and darker in color (though will not destroy a dish like dark soy sauce would)."

"Your normal soy sauce is medium-dark so it’ll be slightly sweeter with a more mirin-like flavor. It’s not to be mistaken with light soy sauce AKA soup soy sauce"

Monday, June 19, 2023

Mom discovers depravity in Trevor Project's trans chat room

Mom discovers depravity in Trevor Project's trans chat room

"“I have been looking for a binder, but I have no clue where to get one? Does anyone know where I could get a reliable binder?” a gender-confused adolescent asked on TrevorSpace, the anonymous online forum for LGBT youth the well-funded and influential Trevor Project hosts.

An adult user replied with a list of brands that sell binders, which are devices worn under the clothes to conceal female breasts, adding, “I really recommend TransTape.”

“If it’s your first time I started with TomboyX compression tops,” another adult wrote.

This is the startling scene Rachel, a Brooklyn mom with a gender-dysphoric child, discovered when she went undercover as a pre-teen in the chat, searching for resources for detransitioners. She found none.

Instead, she opened a “Pandora’s box” of sexually perverse content, aggressive gender-reassignment referrals, adults encouraging minors to hide their transitions from their parents and many troubled kids in need of psychological counseling. She shared screenshots of the chat with National Review.

Rachel says she looked to the Trevor Project in desperation “when I thought my child was going to kill herself.” The organization frequently claims that LGBT youth are more than four times more likely to attempt suicide than their peers. It calls itself a refuge for these people with its crisis services, including TrevorLifeline, TrevorText and TrevorChat.

Under the advice of a “highly credentialed” medical and mental-health team, Rachel and her husband decided to socially transition their child a few years ago, she told National Review.

After that, her child was hospitalized three times for self-harm and suicidality, including at least one suicide attempt. In New York, due to a ban on trans-questioning psychotherapy, so-called gender affirmation was the only legal option they could pursue, she said.

They were at their wit’s end, until her spouse sat her down and presented her with a PowerPoint, showing statistics that people who transition are, by a huge factor, much more likely than the general public to commit suicide.

“My jaw hit the floor. I said, ‘Oh my God, we’ve been lied to,’” she says.

Since then, Rachel, a lifelong Democrat and feminist, has been dedicated to exposing the child gender-transition craze, which she argues is driven by “predatory medicine” the government incentivizes.

In TrevorSpace, she got a bird’s-eye view of the progressive nonprofit giant that is claiming to save young lives but is really driving them further into existential rabbit holes, depravity and potential danger...

When people sign up for TrevorSpace, they have the option of placing themselves within the age ranges of “under 18” or “18-25.” The community is open to people 13-24, according to the site. There is no system in place to confirm a person’s age, Rebecca says and National Review confirmed. She noticed entries from people claiming to be over 25 too, as well as guest accounts with no age listed...

The Trevor Project has subforums on “Transitioning,” “Fashion and beauty,” “Dysphoria” and “Gender queer, non-binary, and gender fluid,” but none on detransitioning or desistance — the common phenomenon of children “growing out of” their transgender identity as they age.

One adult posted a message touting previous invasive medical interventions, noting a willingness to pursue nullification surgery, which involves removing all external genitalia from the abdomen to the groin for the purpose of appearing nonbinary. “I am loving my medical transition now, and have discovered FtN/MtN surgeries that I am now considering. I’m glad I took my time in figuring out what felt best for me,” the user wrote.

Rachel then dove into an abyss of concerning sexual conversation. Some transgender-identifying adults confessed in detail their masturbation addictions and experiences with autogynephilia, the propensity of a male to become sexually aroused by the thought of himself as female, as well as autoandrophilia, the propensity of a female to become sexually aroused by the thought of herself as male.

An adult male wrote, “So I woke up this morning with a huge urge to masturbate, even though I knew I couldn’t, and it would hurt me if I did, I went and did it anyway. And it felt awful, the sensations I felt, the kind of orgasm I had, it was all male, and it just completely shattered my womanhood and served as a cruel reminder of the female sensations I can’t hope to feel because of the male body I was born in.”

In some cases, users under 18 spoke with adult users about their sexual preferences, including BDSM, polyamory and others. Users over 18 asked about paraphilia: “What’s the weirdest sexual thing you know?” 

People responded with “gokkun” — the act of drinking multiple male ejaculations from a container; “bukkake” — the fetish of being covered with ejaculate; “scat play” — deriving sexual gratification from fantasies involving feces; and “forniphilia” — a form of bondage in which a person’s body is incorporated into furniture for sexual acts.

An 18-25 age user posted: “Can I just say they’re all rough doggystyle??” An under-18 user replied, “I’ve heard doggystyle hurts in a good way, but I wouldn’t know. I will say I’m not going to die a virgin. If I have to pull an Evan Hansen and bang a tree, I will.”

Rachel also ran into references to animal kinks, something that professed nonbinary drag queen Sam Britton, a recent Biden administration hire now nuclear waste deputy at the Department of Energy, has dabbled in.

Britton worked at the Trevor Project for four years, first as head of advocacy and government affairs and then vice president of advocacy and government affairs. He has bragged about participating in kink relationships as a “pup handler” — a person, typically a gay man, who enjoys taking care of other typically gay men who pretend to be dogs.

Alix Aharon, an anti-pornography campaigner and creator of Gender Mapper, which tracks gender-clinic locations across the country, was particularly alarmed that the Trevor Project allows contact between kids and adult strangers.

“There should never be a situation in which a young girl is talking to a man. What was most disturbing was their forum and their chat service where you can chat to an adult if you’re a child,” said Aharon, who is on the board of the radical feminist Women’s Liberation Front.

Many messages National Review obtained showed users attempting to connect privately, on apps such as Discord, an instant-messaging social platform.

The Trevor Project did not respond to request for comment."


Naturally, there was a ton of cope and the TRAs were very upset about this article.

One claimed that "the trevor project is a suicide hotline for trans and queer youth" and Matt Walsh was lying (when the Trevor Project itself advertises their forums), but Matt Walsh didn't write the article, nor did he misrepresent it.

When I spoonfed one who claimed the article didn't have evidence of sexually explicit dialogue, he claimed "The article specifically states the ages of the users in that conversation are over 18." when it was precisely the opposite, and claimed Twitter providing sexually explicit material to minors who lie that they're 18 is exactly the same as the Trevor Project providing sexually explicit material to minors who say that they're of age. He then claimed that Matt Walsh pretends that Twitter is safe for minors, but people who endorse Facebook/YouTube/Instagram don't (at least admitting then that the Trevor Project was not safe for minors).

Another just blandly accused Matt Walsh of lying - these people are just primed to claim that everything a conservative says that hurts the liberal agenda is fake, to maintain their ecosystem of fake news and false beliefs.

Two people claimed that it was good because "Teenagers are NOTORIOUSLY curious" and it was better than porn sites and that as a conservative I'd rather "kids feel quiet shame about sex and sexuality and repress it until it does real damage". Apparently nowadays, thinking 13 year olds should not be talking to 24 year olds about sex makes you a conservative.

Three others kept insisting that over- and under-18s were unable to talk to each other and only over-18s could talk about sex (despite the article saying the opposite), and two claimed that because there was no screenshot linked in the post, there was no evidence for that.

Yet, here is a thread from the forum (not in the original exposé) where an over-18 and an under-18 are talking about BDSM. The over-18 even explicit says that there's an "explicit description of a kinky bedroom routine". When confronted with the evidence, one did a bait and switch (of course).

A (18-25): Content warning: explicit description of a kinky bedroom routine

Hey y'all,

I came out as asexual and put it on my online dating profile. It helped me to find an asexual boyfriend who shared my non-desire for intercourse. We shared our BDSM test results and formed a consensual bedroom routine that led me and occasionally him to achieve sex-like euphoria. Sometimes I would even get there without the BDSM aspects.

Common aspects of routine: wearing only gym shorts, hugging, kissing, cuddling, touching, licking, biting, feet, expectoration, melee. Naturally, we could sense each other's dynamic genitalia through our underwear and gym shorts, and hear each other's sighs.

Is this sex?

Our personalities didn't mesh, so I'm back on the market. While I appreciate my right to choose my own label, I want to imply my openness to outercourse without implying openness to intercourse under any circumstance.

B: (Under 18): No it’s not 

 

When I posted the screenshot, someone told me "prove it". Of course, if I'd provided the URL to the thread, I'd have been accused of violating privacy, endangering individuals etc

There was a lot more cope, but no one replied to someone who pointed out that "Regardless of the topic of minors and adults discussing sexual topics, we can all agree the TrevorSpace does not have appropriate moderation. They allow 14 year olds and minors to post "looking for bf/gf" ads and even allow minors to dox themselves posting their phone number"

Addendum:

Here is a 14 year old who says he's "Gay and poly" looking for "a regular or poly relationship" and posting his phone number

Saturday, June 17, 2023

Queer Children's Books Author vs Drag Queens and Kids

Probably in response to this nonsensical Twitter thread (which I've featured before

Conflating "Drag Queens" with LGB | GenderCritical | Ovarit

"There is a meme going around picturing favorite children's books with this caption: "I bet most of the people flipping out about drag queens and kids have no idea that their favorite classic children's books were written by queer people"

This is apples and oranges. The authors may have been (I have not researched) LG or B, not likely were they drag queens, and equally not likely would they have preferred to be called queer.

It is disingenuous, and designed to mislead people into thinking "drag queen story hours" are just fine. And normalize the term "queer". I am annoyed by this, everytime I see it."

 

I note that the stupid meme's logic is that "Many children's books were written by queer people. Therefore there's nothing wrong with drag queens interacting with children". Besides the slippage between queer people and drag queens and being queer and doing queer things, there is no logical link between children's books writers being queer and exposing children to queerness.

One might as well say that since most children's books were written by straight people who had sex, there's no problem with showing kids straight porn.


Comments:

i) One, drag isn't what it used to be. Drag shows used to be female impersonators dressed as divas like Diana Ross, Judy Garland, Carol Channing. They'd wear gowns and lip-sync to the original music. They weren't lewd--the tips went into their hands, not their underwear. This is no longer the case.

Two, drag queen story hour is not just a guy in drag reading any old book to kids, it's a national organization which promotes gender identity theory. They read from TQIA+ books for kids, and they use worksheets from the "Dragtivity" book. Not every DQSH is a local franchise, but whether they are or not, they're hired to present a certain agenda. That's the whole idea.

ii) This is the only sort of drag I'd experienced before and I was initially really surprised at all the backlash. Women dressed up in glittery costumes to look like a princess or fairy or whatever seems pretty par for the course as far as children's events go. Might be neat to show kids that men can do that sort of thing too.

It took seeing stuff like the 'it won't lick itself' backdrop that made me realise they were straight up showing adult entertainment to kids, not adapting it to just be an age-appropriate performance. That is truly disgusting.

iii) This is the crux of the problem to me. I don't care about drag queens in general, and I don't even think it's terrible for drag queens to be around kids as long as their act only involves makeup and wigs and costumes and they keep it strictly G-rated. My issue is with gender ideology, and that organization is heavily invested in normalizing child transition to impressionable kids. It's not about breaking gender stereotypes. It's about telling children that if they "feel like" the opposite sex, maybe they actually are.

iv) I don't believe in gender ideology, and I don't think little kids get camp--what message are we sending to them, that a man dressed up as a woman is something to laugh at?

v) I have found out in the past week how many "normies" on my FB list (plus, of course, the woke libfems who would cancel me in a second if they knew what I really thought) suddenly think taking kids to drag shows is a wonderful idea, and also, apparently how this is how we (I'm a lesbian....a normal, "boring" one though) all are. It is so depressing.....at this point I think it's basically "if the conservatives hate it, we love it, no matter what it is!". One grandmother on my list posted a rant about how she'd be happy to take her grandchildren (ages 4-11) to a drag show over church (I'm not religious whatsoever and I get the sentiment about religious indoctrination....I also get that this is new religion indoctrination)

vi) "I'd rather take my kids to a drag show than to church!" Who even said it was a binary choice? You can choose to do neither, or to do any number of other things. Only in the American political landscape do people think they have to pick one or the other team, they are conditioned by the mindset and spread it everywhere.

vii) This. I remember Francis Foster recounting how some of his friends had reached out to him to tell him that he should change his opinions if he wanted to remain on the left.

viii) Like how about I'll just say whatever I think is right and it'll fall where it'll fall on the spectrum... And not, like, just defend things because I want to be on the side which I think is the right one even when I think the opposite of what they think?

I’m not religious at all either, but it’s worse than one religion over another. There aren’t strippers in their work lingerie giving sermons in church and twerking during Sunday school.

Children being deliberately exposed to sexualised adult entertainment is a form of sexual abuse. If the teacher invited a stripper or porn star, of either sex, into school to do their adult entertainment, police would be called.

Even if people are fine with drag for adults (I’m not) they shouldn’t be ok with children exposed to it.

ix) At least churches try to instill socially supportive moral values. Oh, like: don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal and don't kill. Honor your parents. Care for the poor.

What values are being presented at drag shows? At the least, theatrical mockery of women is ok.

x) I am in the same situation: if I responded as I wish to this meme, I would be catapulted into the ether. I keep my thoughts to myself and thank the goddess we have this forum in which I can rant.

xi) Same here. I feel much more supported here by so many anonymous women than the collection of acquaintances (some of whom I used to call friends) on facebook.

xii) These people have some major problems with logic. There are many great artists who were horrible people. Pablo Picasso for example. You may be able to appreciate one of his paintings, but he wouldn't have been someone you wanted as a father or husband.

Secondly, 'queer' as they use the term today DID NOT EXIST. Yes, there were same sex attracted people, eunuchs and social classes similar to the Hijra in many cultures. There were often complex social and political reasons these categories existed, most of them not very progressive. I don't know of too many of them who wrote children's books.

There is absolutely NO REASON whatsoever for drag queens to be reading anything to children. There is nothing good to be learned here.

xiii) Saying gay men have the right to do drag as expression is not really that different than saying white women have the right to crossdress as black men to me. Both are categories that are in an axis of oppression and not on other appropriating and mocking other unrelated category. Ministrels did drag as much as they did blackface, but misogyny is not considered having the same impact as racism, so people argue it’s different. It is not.

xiv) I was just complaining about this as I looked at pictures of a local "family friendly" drag show that had a big "love is love" sign across the stage. Yes, I agree love is love! The LGB community has all of my support! What in the world does that have to do with a bunch of men on a stage ridiculously mocking women?

xv) Libs are really reaching for the gotchas on the drag queen issue. Their whole argument for drag queens is “Oh you don’t like drag queens? Than what about this (completely unrelated thing)!?” Just yesterday there was a post on TooAfraidToAsk asking if people would be okay with drag queens coming to their child’s school. Every single no was downvoted. People were saying shit like “I wouldn’t want Uvalde cops in my kids school”, “The same people who want drag queens out of schools want guns in schools!” Truly what the fuck. How the fuck are we now equating school shootings and drag queens? Are we incapable of recognizing that two things are bad?

Obviously men with guns are a massive problem and cops are useless, as we saw recently in Uvalde. I don’t want either of those men around children. I don’t want religion around children either, for the record. I also don’t want men who dress as caricatures of women around children. We should not be capitulating our children to gun violence or sexual depravity. I see them act as if not wanting these explicit performers in schools is an affront to trans children. Why are they conflating trans with drag? I thought they always vehemently declared they are separate things?

Drag queens do not teach “tolerance” or “acceptance” or “inclusion”. They teach stereotypes, hatred of women, and male supremacy. They’re not progressive gender benders, they’re the same misogynists we’ve had all throughout history. This time the indoctrination is covered in rhinestones and sexual innuendo. They don’t need to be around children, period.

xvi) I think what this means is just the general idea that "if you don't agree with me, a self declared liberal, then that means you are a gun toting Republican", y'know. It's probably mostly that they are saying the only reason one might not want an oversexualized man in womanface around children is homophobia. And who is homophobic? Conservatives!! Conservatives who think the solution to school shootings is arming both the teachers and the kids!!!

That's some of the stupidest logic I've ever heard frankly. Typing it made my head hurt.

xvii) Redditors skew young, male and overly online. I'm betting most of the people interacting with that post don't have children.

It's a great reminder that reddit is good for manufacturing consent and not to take it too seriously.

xviii) I’m aware of Reddit demographics, but there are many young women in my life who work with children that completely support drag queens and all other TQ/non-binary garbage. Unfortunately these bad takes aren’t confined to Reddit. I just hope as they get older they realize they were wrong :/

xix) Blair White had a good tweet saying “Taking children to Drag Queen Story Hour to learn to respect gay people is like taking them to a strip clinic to learn to respect women.”

Very succinct way of putting it, and if it comes up that’s what I’m saying for sure.

xx) Yeah, one thing that I think is overlooked is how the gay male drag queen stereotype makes gay men out to be clownish spectacles.

Maybe there was once a reasonable time and a place for this “art form” when gay men were considered scary and perverted; giving them a stage to perform in a nonthreatening, whimsical way might have made people more apt to laugh at them than spit at and punch them. But shouldn’t we be well past the point that we need to laugh at gay men to be comfortable with them in normal society? Of course we should be. The shit is beyond played out, but for some reason, drag queens are still trying to be relevant despite the social gains that LGB have attained.

Which makes me think most of these drag queens are not gay men. They are “queer” men with agendas that differ from the gay men who just wanted to be fabulous on stage from time to time. Exposing themselves to kids is their interest.

xxi) I'm not like a lot of rad fems in that I actually enjoy drag. I think its entertaining to see the cool costumes and makeup and production value. Do I think its feminist and that my take is perfectly reasoned? No, it isn't and I'm not perfect but it's fun and brings me joy in this capitalist hellscape we live in.

With that, there is absolutely no reason children should be exposed to drag queens. I come from a liberal family and I knew what a drag queen was from the time I was 12 or so but I didnt go to my first drag show until I was 18. It's sexually charged by nature. It's the same thing with pole dancing. I have no problem if adults want to participate for fitness/fun but it should not be viewed by children.

xxii) I admit I liked it back when it was just gay dudes dressing as Judy Garland and impersonating her, not mocking her.

I've never been to a drag show, but I used to like the gay male impersonators on TV.

Now it's just been hijacked by pedos. That's exactly what this is. And when parents have had enough, it's gay people who will be punished.

xxiii) Several years back outlets like Slate were cranking out article after article about how the gay community owed drag queens a big apology. Respectability politics! Gay liberation was STARTED and GUIDED by drag queens! I recognized the narcissism even then, though I was still learning.

Now I understand why some early gay rights activists didn't want drag queens around, or at least didn't center them in their activism. They actually didn't contribute a lot to gay liberation. The battle was largely won by people who just wanted to live their lives between consenting adults, without trampling boundaries or being hyper sexual in public. Drag wasn't even about gay liberation like marriage. It was just a burlesque act. It was part of gay culture but as a performing art. Not a priesthood.

Nonetheless, drag artists also used to need some sort of talent to do what they do. Now you can get most of the costumes from Amazon. Most just stomp around flicking their wig hair and lip-syncing. No dancing, no comedy, nothing. Way back in like, 1981, my mother went to see a drag act in a very conservative state, in a liberal enclave. They were two guys and they were stand up comics. They were apparently hilarious. Excellent timing, great voice work, they'd written their own act.

You'd think that if you valued drag, you'd be sad about the degradation and lack of talent. I love the performing arts. I could even look past the misogyny of drag if it were really well-performed. And they swept up the anti-woman dialogue, of course. The costumes are ugly, the makeup poor or generic, and it's all....well....a drag. But not the way it should be.

xxiv) This is the key difference "normal" people do not understand. They just group us all together as deviants.

There was an episode of QaF that actually addressed the whole normal gay people vs drag queens thing, but it dropped the ball by having Micheal go at the last minute, "No! Drag queens are a part of the rainbow too!"

Male writers and male solidarity, I guess. Gay men are the only ones constantly trying to include drag queens "as normal" (they're fucking perfomers, not the face of the average gay perosn!) and giving them more credit than they deserve. You can find old gay men going on about how the drag queens built bars and clubs for them -- as if gay men don't cruise and fuck anywhere and everywhere, including back alleys.

 

From Genuine question: What's with drag and kids? | GenderCritical | Ovarit:

i) Frankly doesn’t make any sense to me - dressing up as an exaggerated stereotype of a woman isn’t “beyond stereotypes” just because it’s a man doing it.

And if “encouraging acceptance of difference” is the goal, why is it ONLY men in dresses reading to kids? Why not invite disabled people, people of other cultures/nationalities/races, elder people, neurodiverse people… so many choices. Maybe even gay people who aren’t wearing offensive costumes?

ii) Bingo. The highly sexualized nature of these performances is lost on small children anyway (hopefully). Learning that some families have two moms or two dads is really all they need to know about homosexuality. If the point is gender nonconformity, there are dozens more age-appropriate options. Bring in a female scientist to do a science show. Kids love colorful smoke and explosions. What about a female firefighter or paramedic?

This is entirely about the QT, pedos, and/or kinksters using children to validate their lifestyle.

iii) Encourage children to look beyond gender stereotypes and embrace unfettered exploration of self by portraying a very specific stereotype as the only acceptable self expression.

iv) they are pedo bait. these kids serve a very specific function. they become the unwitting aide in a masturbatory paraphiliac's fantasy,

v) Why not include other children for these kids to interact with? They can share about their lives with other kids who are on their same level.

I don't know how it is in most schools these days, but at my elementary school all of the "different" kids were in separate special ed classes. We never interacted with them, ever.

So why not have a group of diverse children who can just play and be kids together while learning tolerance and empathy for others?

vi) I honestly think the people doing this are homophobes who are trying to virtue signal that they are gay allies. If their goal was really to help normalize homosexuality, they'd just bring in a normal gay man (or lesbian woman, gasp!). Just a regular gay person who talks about their life for a bit and then mentions that they're gay, introducing kids to the fact that there are lots of gay people around and they are just like anyone else regardless of who they're attracted to. Instead, when these "wokesters" think of a gay man, their first thought is "drag queen"? Some of these kids have never, as far as they know, met a gay person before, so it seems pretty toxic that what may be their first introduction to a gay man is seeing a man doing an adult entertainment act where he's caricaturizing a woman. Why would this be how you want children to see gay people? A boy questioning if he is gay might, after "drag queen story hour," be more hesitant now that he thinks being gay involves this level of performance or "queerness," rather than knowing that whichever sex(es) he ends up being attracted to has nothing to do with his personality.

vii) This is a good point. If this is a child's first encounter with gay folks (or even the concept of homosexuality), its going to leave a VERY bizarre, bad impression on them. Instead of being taught that gay people are just like everyone else, they're being taught that all gay men are flamboyant clowns (and that lesbians apparently don't exist because being "queer" is ALL ABOUT MEN). Which will likely cause quite a bit of confusion for kids who grow up to be homosexual, but would rather stay in the closet because they want no part of "queer" clownery

viii) I think we should start showing up outside of libraries and whatnot with signs like "Misogyny is NOT progressive" or "Stop Mocking Women" or whatever. I think most people thoughtlessly assume that they're supporting LGBTQIAAMNOPQ+ people without considering that they're just watching grown men mock women.

The TRAs have done a very good job of falsely portraying anyone who opposes them as 'transphobic' and we need to start making it clear to people that it's not 'conservative v. progressive' but '(conservative/status quo + progressive) v. regressive'.

ix) "Gays against drag" "Woman is not a costume" "Drag is for adults"

x) I don't like "Drag is for adults" because misogyny shouldn't be acceptable for anyone.

xi) And a sign that says "Coulrophobia Is Not Bigotry." Make coulrophobia the new word to latch onto as a rallying cry. Coulrophobia is neither left- nor right-wing. It's not a political ideology to be fearful of clowns.

xii) Gay culture was always flanked by BDSM, self-harm and other weird sub-cultures and paraphilias, so when the ‘T’ latched on, all the gross sexual stuff oozed out as trans started leading the train into the corporate mainstream. Now we have things like gender-bending sex shows for kids (that are extremely inappropriate for kids) being held up as “LGBT progress” because, idk, whatever makes dicks hard, I guess?

xiii) My guess is because it’s a way to get a foothold to indoctrinate kids from an extremely young age by passing it off as a type of dress-up/clown/make-believe entertainment. It gets them used to the lingo and sexual suggestiveness from an early age. In other words, it’s a woke veneer for a type of grooming, being passed off as harmless. Has Jimmy Savile vibes.

Edit: who benefits by exposing (sorry, not intentional) children to an adult male, gay, subculture? Why is this deemed necessary to shove at kids, who if they grow up to be gay men, will learn about it anyway? Why can’t the library hire actors to be in character for the stories they read? This is an adult-driven agenda and is not benign. There have already been cases of pedos doing this and cases of indecent exposure.

xiv) Like most aspects to the Trans Agenda, there are layers to it. There is the cold and calculated manipulation cooked up by some truly terrifying people with money to push their agenda, and the foot soldiers doing their bidding. Those powerful men want societal-wide grooming, all over the planet. Their goal is to get sexual access to kids, make a killing financially, and to push their transhumanist agenda.

Then you have the normies acting it out because they can virtue signal how woke they are, and they hear that the chuds hate it so that makes it good. There are so many memes about how Red Hat types would eat a loaf of shit if they thought a liberal would have to smell their breath, but look at how many of The Right Side of History are willing to do almost anything to upset the "other team", even sterilize autistic kids.

Lots of people are dumb, there's no way around it. The thin arguments like "We're showing that sex stereotypes are meaningless!" are coming from the same crowd who say they have to sterilize their child and amputate their genitals because they don't perfectly match sex stereotypes. They haven't thought it through, they're virtue twerking and it's not much deeper than that from their side.

It would be good to have more radfem protests of these grooming events, because the chattering classes have bought the line that only homophobes, chuds and Christians (the horror!) oppose grooming kids into kink.

xv) It's being marketed as progressive and good family fun that also happens to "challenge" (allegedly) "old-fashioned" "stereotypes" about how men and women "should" be (except, as others have pointed out, drag actually reinforces the worst, most regressive, most old-fashioned stereotypes about women that exist).

It's being marketed as a way for children to escape from gender stereotypes while simultaneously strengthening those very same stereotypes. It's a mess.

xvi) I just emailed one local to me. Please email the ones near you! Here's what I said:

"Hi!

I’m a [redacted] County citizen. I recently became aware that you will be holding a Drag Queen Story Hour. What is your goal? To teach children that mocking women is normal and fun? Will you have a minstrel show next week? Please reconsider your choices. MISOGYNY IS WRONG and whoever organized this event should be fired for promoting hatred towards a marginalized group and spreading stereotypes. You’re on the wrong side of history."

xvii) I don't see how this helps dispell homophobia. If anything, those hideous costumes and those creepy men are going to plant the idea in these kids that "gay man = freak".

A generation of kids became terrified of clowns because of the movie "It" in the 80s. I wonder if this Drag Time For Kids bullshit will do the same for TIMs. 🤣

xviii) When I was in library school a few years ago, this was a big topic of conversation in one of my classes. Everyone except one woman was for it, and I was hesitant. I'm very against it today. I can totally see a bunch of my peers doing this ti be subversive and push back against the conservatives in my state. My classmates who work in K-12 school libraries post trans books ALL THE TIME. The American Library Association is steeped in gender ideology. You can't get out of library school nowadays without being bashed over the head with gender ideology. I can only imagine how bad it is in library programs on the coasts. It was bad enough in flyover Middle America!

xix) I remember being completely dumbfounded by the religiosity of this particular librarian: https://americanlibrariesmagazine.org/2020/05/01/neutrality-when-speech-isnt-free/

If I was running a surreptitious social engineering campaign and someone suggested to target the librarian association I would have replied with something like "Nah, they are all well-read, smart and really understand the importance fighting censorship. You're never going to get them..."

...

xx) Yeah it’s very “stick it to the uptight Christian bigots” but they have to keep getting more and more extreme to get a rise out of people. Like they deliberately poke the bear and then scream that they just wanna live. Stop pushing it then

Thursday, July 21, 2022

You can take the Singaporean out of Singapore, but you can't take Singapore out of the Singaporean

In an expat Singaporean group:

A: Quick question, apologize if it’s been discussed previously. Will I need to leave this group if I eventually leave [country] and return to [Singapore]?

B: Only a Singaporean would ask this... whatever you want lah, you won’t get fined or summoned.

C: lol. My wife (non-singaporean) is always amazed at how we follow most rules to a T. Not a bad trait but this takes the cake!

D: You’ll have to self isolate for 3 mths, and tested negative for kiasuism before you’re allowed back in the group.

Friday, May 06, 2022

Roe v Wade, Viability and State Abortion Law

A: abortion laws are specific that they are ONLY allowed prior to viability--when the fetus cannot survive outside the womb...

[B,] You are the one who seems to be not understanding the narrowness of abortion law B: some states allow abortion up until full term. That is not narrow. A: no they do not--that is propaganda. If a state allowed abortions past viability--they would be effectively breaking the law and would have no protection afforded to them by the Constitution,

Now you may be thinking of what propagandists on fake news channels said were "full term" abortions. But those were for ONLY unelected abortions--that were done for issues that concerned the life of the mother.

AND every Bill (granted you would have to read the laws instead of relying on what the media tells you) REQUIRED that equipment be in place to take care of the child if viable.

This is the issue--you WANT to be uninformed because you WANT this to be the issues-but they are not. B: lol why don't you go ahead and tell me what an "unelected abortion" is exactly. Under what circumstance in your mind would a medical team ever opt to deliberately KILL - rather than deliver - a full term baby in order to save the mother's life?

You're the one believing propaganda, fren. A: Deliberately kill--never. That is the point. You can label a c-section as an unelected late term abortion.

They are only done in the rare instances where the pregnancy risks the life of the mother or child. Just because the word "abortion" is used does not mean it is a death sentence. And as the laws all state--EVERY precaution is taken to save the child.

Read them and rove me wrong--you won't but the invitation is there.

Again you have to want to be educated and informed in these issues--which you keep showing me you are not and do not want...

you are ignorantly assuming that states have laws that allow for abortions up to term of the child solely for the death of the child. NOT ME.

Any abortion done after viability is a later term abortion. NONE are being done with the purpose to end the pregnancy--there has to be a medical reason otherwise it is murder. Look up ectopic pregnancy which is just one example. Without an abortion in those situations both the child and the mother will die.

Now if you are of the opinion that you or your daughter would be fine dying instead of the abortion procedure--that is you. But the rest of society and parents would vastly disagree B: Ectopic pregnancy? Are you for real? 😂 That will explode your insides well before you ever get to second term. That is not a late term abortion, that's a near 💯 exclusively first trimester issue and the pregnancy itself isn't viable in that instance. A: Unelected and later term abortions in themselves are rare--and EVERY attempt is made to preserve the life of the child if that is possible. Me: A claims that abortions past the point of viability only ever happen when the life of the mother is threatened

More facts for him to scoff at:

Late-Term Abortion and Medical Necessity: A Failure of Science - PMC

"A more recent Guttmacher study focused on abortion after 20 weeks of gestation and similarly concluded that women seeking late-term abortions were not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. The study further concluded that late-term abortion seekers were younger and more likely to be unemployed than those seeking earlier abortions. It is estimated that about 1% of all abortions in the United States are performed after 20 weeks, or approximately 10 000 to 15 000 annually. Since the Roe framework essentially medicalized abortion decisions beyond the first trimester, and since abortions in the United States are now performed on demand and only rarely for medical reasons which could end the life of the mother, what can we conclude about the value and impact of medical necessity determination in the case of induced abortion? A prescient proabortion author predicted today’s events with remarkable foresight when he concluded that the “rhetoric of medical necessity” is a mistaken strategy because “it is not the empirical evidence of what is or is not medically necessary which is important,” but rather “who possesses the ability to interpret necessity within key political contexts.” When viewed from this perspective, it is possible to see the recent New York and Virginia legislation as a signal that politics, not science, is the most powerful influence on abortion issues and legislation." A: that study does not to emphasize the fact that any abortion procedure after viability is illegal.

nor does it negate that the purpose of those is to save the child if possible--hence why ALL REQUIRE life saving equipment be on hand and operable prior to the procedure. Me: A imagines that "any abortion procedure after viability is illegal"

In reality, the Guttmacher Institute informs us that

An Overview of Abortion Laws | Guttmacher Institute

"43 states prohibit abortions after a specified point in pregnancy, with some exceptions provided. The allowable circumstances are generally when an abortion is necessary to protect the patient's life or health."

In other words, in 7 states abortion after viability is legal A: where in that article does it state abortion after viability is legal in ANY state. Those other states allow for late term abortions--but I have already explained those differences.

No such state will allow for the life of a child to be ended after viability Me: Looking forward to more cope

State Facts About Abortion: Alaska | Guttmacher Institute

"Restrictions on Abortion

In Alaska, the following restrictions on abortion were in effect as of January 1, 2022:
A patient must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage the patient from having an abortion."

There is nothing else listed under "Restrictions on Abortion", i.e. there're no other restrictions on abortion

The KFF summarises abortion restrictions a bit differently, but under "State Imposed Threshold for Abortions" we see "N/A" for 7 states and DC

States with Gestational Limits for Abortion | KFF

For people like A who don't understand what "N/A" means, the KFF very helpfully tells us "N/A: Not applicable"

In other words, according to the KFF, 7 states and DC do not restrict abortions after a certain point in the pregnancy A: what does this article about AK prove since it makes no claim that any abortions are being done to viable fetuses? Me: Ah, so now the cope is that "it might not be illegal but it's not being done"

Clearly A was referring to himself when he claimed that I "make a comment and then twist yourself into pretzels trying to change what you are arguing and work hard to insult me--that this is more about you saving face then having an actual argument." A: what do you mean by not illegal? Alaska law defines a legal abortion as "Terminate pregnancy of nonviable fetus"

SO I am asking you to refute where I am stating NO STATE will legally allow a pregnancy to be terminated of a viable fetus--unless it is a medical emergency and even then ALL precautions are taken to save the life of the viable fetus if possible.

Deflect and project because you are butt hurt at my comments all you want.

Or answer my question--I could care les either way. Me: Since I'm interested to see the next cope,

A: "any abortion procedure after viability is illegal...the purpose of those is to save the child if possible"

The Denver Post reports that "a 13-year-old girl in her third trimester who’d been raped by a family member"

Why a NY woman came to Colorado for a 32-week abortion

CNN reports the case of a woman who got an abortion at 30 weeks in New Mexico

They had abortions late in their pregnancies. These are their stories | CNN A: In the Denver Post article--the 13 year old was a hypothetical.

Here is the full excerpt (nice purposely selection of what you wanted the article to say rather than actually mean):

Most of his patients, though, gave a reason other than a fetal abnormality. According to the paper, “the proportion of all patients seeking pregnancy termination for fetal disorder increased over time from 2.5% to 30%.”

For him, the decision to abort comes down to a simple question: Is the woman safer carrying to term or not?

His answer was yes for a 13-year-old girl in her third trimester who’d been raped by a family member. It was an awful situation with no easy solution, Hern said. The girl had a long road to recovery from the trauma she experienced no matter what her family decided. But, the doctor said, he turned away a woman who came to him at the same gestational age after she broke up with her partner.

As for the CNN article, you do have a point there as NM law seems to be in violation. They have a weird clause that requires legal abortions are o if "A pregnancy that is likely to result in the death or grave impairment of the physical or mental health of the woman" which this woman claims.

I do not agree the child should have been terminated and I am not sure what they did was actually legal even under NM law--hence why they are not willing to give their name. I do not agree with this nor any state that condones it. Me: The 13 year old girl was not hypothetical

"His answer was yes for a 13-year-old girl in her third trimester who’d been raped by a family member. It was an awful situation with no easy solution, Hern said. The girl had a long road to recovery from the trauma she experienced no matter what her family decided. But, the doctor said, he turned away a woman who came to him at the same gestational age after she broke up with her partner."

This is clearly referring to a real person

Not sure what quoting the "full excerpt" is supposed to prove

And what is the NM law "in violation" of? What is this 1776 freedom land federal law that bans abortion after viability? A: the question was in regards to answering when an abortion should or should not occur: " Is the woman safer carrying to term or not?"

His answer was for a 13 year rape victim sadly the answer is yes she is safer carrying to term, hence no abortion despite the psychological impact.

The NM law violates abortions after viability--there are exceptions for life of the mother but they stretch it further to include mental health, which I am not sure falls under the Constitutional constructs of Roe v Wade or Casey--which is what bans abortions after viability and has the been the whole point of discussion.  

Me: I can't believe I need to explain this

"Hern kept detailed records on his patients’ reported fetal anomalies over two decades — up to 2012 — and published his own paper detailing 160 different conditions cited in seeking abortions."

Hern was talking about actual abortions for late term abortion

"Most of his patients, though, gave a reason other than a fetal abnormality"

This is referring to real patients and the reasons they gave for late term abortion

"His answer was yes for a 13-year-old girl in her third trimester who’d been raped by a family member"

He was referring to his judgment in an actual case for a 13 year old girl who was in her third trimester and had been r a p e d by a family member

"It was an awful situation with no easy solution"

The use of the past tense means that this was an actual situation which happened in the past

"he turned away a woman who came to him at the same gestational age after she broke up with her partner"

This was referring to another real third trimester patient with an equally advanced pregnancy

How is how the paragraph would have read if Hern had been talking about hypotheticals (ignoring the previous paragraphs talking about real cases):

"His answer would be yes for a 13-year-old girl in her third trimester who’d been raped by a family member. It would be an awful situation with no easy solution, Hern said. The girl would have a long road to recovery from the trauma she experienced no matter what her family decided. But, the doctor said, he would turn away a woman who came to him at the same gestational age after she broke up with her partner."

Note the use of the conditional (for hypothetical events) as opposed to the past tense (for actual events in the past)

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about

Roe v. Wade (1973) | Wex | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

"The Court divided the pregnancy period into three trimesters. During the first trimester, the decision to terminate the pregnancy was solely at the discretion of the woman. After the first trimester, the state could “regulate procedure.” During the second trimester, the state could regulate (but not outlaw) abortions in the interests of the mother’s health. After the second trimester, the fetus became viable, and the state could regulate or outlaw abortions in the interest of the potential life except when necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother."

Roe v Wade does not ban abortion after viability

"After the second trimester, the fetus became viable, and the state could regulate or outlaw abortions"

does not mean

"After the second trimester, the fetus became viable, and the state had to regulate or outlaw abortions" A: what are you talking about? The language specifically allows a state to outlaw abortions after viability.

You are trying so hard to prove I am wrong that you start arguing semantics like this is some dissertational defense instead of me randomly commenting on a phone.

The argument is whether states CAN ban abortions--I am not going to dictate every lawful objective at their disposal and for the sake of argument I have only focused on what options states have for outlawing or banning abortions. Whether they can regulate them otherwise is irrelevant

A state wantonly murdering a living child is NOT part of Roe v Wade--which is the context it is brought up when people like Jessie bring up late term abortions. Me: That was a remarkably fast turnaround

"Roe v Wade... is what bans abortions after viability" - you, 23 minutes ago A: and I love how you copied and pasted so much of that article but PURPOSELY left out the context of the 13 year old girl comment.

For him, the decision to abort comes down to a simple question: Is the woman safer carrying to term or not?

"His answer was yes for a 13-year-old girl in her third trimester who’d been raped by a family member. It was an awful situation with no easy solution."

Nowhere else does he discuss the 13 year old or provide any further context of the procedure or its outcome

Yes Roe v Wade provides states the means to ban abortions after viability. Nothing I have said contradicts that statement. Me: QFT

"where in that article does it state abortion after viability is legal in ANY state. Those other states allow for late term abortions--but I have already explained those differences.

No such state will allow for the life of a child to be ended after viability" A: yes nowhere in that article you posted refutes said statement.

And we are talking about what states can allow for the death of a child post-viability--unless it is a medical emergency or life of the mother. As far as I have seen none can or should.

I did recognize that the NM case was wrong--and maintained based on what I have said that it may very well been illegal--hence why they refused to provide their information.

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