Conversations - 26th July 2008

"There is no reciprocity. Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters." - Alice Thomas Ellis

Addendum: I also see this as "There is no reciprocity. Men love women. Women love children. Children love hamsters. Hamsters don't love anyone". - Anna Haycraft

***

Someone: u know, *** can be quite stupid at times
makes me wonder how she got into [top UK college] and [top US college]

but perhaps she's just generally brilliant but with blinders on when it comes to anything to do with women


Someone else: that's called flattery.. flattery!!
girls love flattery!!

Me: yeah women respond well to it
women dont appreciate honesty hurr hurr

Someone else: although she's so small, she's still a girl
d:

i mean woman

Me: small cannot be woman ah

Someone else: lol.. cannot
she's still a little girl

Me: ...
is *** still a little girl

Someone else: hahah.. kind of..

it's a little different
girlfriend, even though small, is still woman
friend, if small, is a girl!!
kawaii!!!

Me: ..............

Someone else: aren't both of them kawaii???
ahahhahahahaha!

Me: now I feel like slapping you

Someone else: hohoho

what?
you should watch more anime or read more manga

Me: yah then I end up like you
or ***. or ***

Someone else: yeah, why not?? d:

Me: *** is like a manga character
always excited

Someone else: yeah.. exactly...
but that's okay.. haha
manga characters are fun, flowery, have crazy lives

Me: depends on the manga
sometimes they go crazy and kill their crushes

Someone else: what manga do you read!!
@@

Me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_Days_(game)


Someone: btw, my friend told me the correct answer to your pro-kidney sales thing is this:
when it is legalised, i will offer to buy BOTH your kidneys for 10K

and if you refuse, i shall report you to the authorities for opposition to capitalism
=p

Me: ........

that's like saying if someone supports being paid for doing work you should make them work 24/7
and if the personrefuses, he's a communist

...

Someone: actually there's a way to scuttle the organ trading hub plan of khaw boon wan

all it takes... is for other countries to declare that any citizen found selling or buying organs in singapore... would be considered criminals for breaking their own countries' organ trading bans

(remember, singapore started this extraterritorial nonsense thing first, by insisting that singaporeans who consumed marijuana in australia were still criminally liable when they returned to the fatherland)

Me: other countries aren't as retarded as us

Someone: indeed

but this will preemptively scuttle the sg organ trading plan

it's clear that we don't have enough singaporeans to fuel an organ market, either on the buyers or sellers side

and in case you're forgetting, other countries do insist on extraterritorial prosecution of their own citizens for certain crimes, such as child sex/paedophilia

Me: why don't we have enough singaporeans

there is no harm involved here, unlike in child sex/paedophilia

Someone: well, the countries that still ban organ trading (i.e everyone in the world aside from singapore and iran) obviously see it as a harm
so they will dispute your point

Me: they ban drugs
but they don't insist on extraterritorial prosecution of their own citizens for drug consumption

Someone: singapore does

Me: but other countries don't
they're not as retarded as us

Someone: look.

extraterritorial prosecution is practised by the following countries: australia, austria, belgium, china, canada, denmark, finland, france, germany, iceland, italy, japan, morocco, new zeland, norway, portugal, spain, sweden, taiwan, UK and US

for the folliowing "crimes": sex tourism, human smuggling...

they could probably argue that singapore's organ trading is a legitimised attempt at organ smuggling, and prosecute their citizens from this viewpoint

Me: sex tourism, if properly practiced, harms no one. and I've only ever heard of prosecution for underaged sex

human smuggling is obviously a crime to another person


I think they've better things to do
which is why they don't prosecute foreign consumption of drugs

apparently neither have we since the first case

Someone: human smuggling is not a crime to the person getting smuggled

to them, it was a simple economic transaction: you loan me money, i work for you in foreign country
where's the harm?
=P

properly practised, human smuggling harms no one

Me: eh I thought you meant human trafficking

well the only reason it harms people is that it is illegal, and the attempt to get around immigration restrictions necessitates people suffocating in trucks

and the only reason we have human smuggling is because of illiberal immigration laws

so if we legalise organ trading we won't have problems like with human smuggling

Someone: what we need is a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy solution

breed a special subspecies of human beings who WANT their organs to be donated


MFTTW: on principle i am against [paid organ donations] too

ideologically so
i don't believe that one should attach monetary values to human life
30k per kidney, 50k per liver etc. then 1 human is wroth how much, 500k etc.

of course don't ask me to explain how that would be practical, but still.

Me: http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/humannature/archive/2008/07/23/age-wealth-and-medicare.aspx

that is what happens when you don't attach monetary value to human life
you waste money
and since money is not infinite, other people die

this is not attaching monetary value to human life
but to a medical commodity

MFTTW: in principle again i also think medicare is best spent on younger people what

it works the same way in organ donations also -- people who are younger and more likely to survive have higher priority on transplant waiting lists

if all lives are equal in value (which in principle again, they should be)
then why favor one rich guy who can afford a kidney over a poor guy who canont

i think in this instance the medical commodity is virtually equal to a human life.

besides i really don't see the point of having a 50k surgery to live 5 years beyond 90

Me: if all lives are equal in value why favor younger people over older people

anyway when you legalise organ sales you don't ban organ donations
doesn't mean poor people won't get transplants

so emergency healthcare should be made free
because they are equivalent to human life

MFTTW: it's not a unilateral unifying principle...given the same age and fitness level, poor vs rich is irrelevant
but given a disparity in fitness level...people do need to learn to die gracefully

you put too much stock in human goodness to assume that if organ sales become legal, donations will still exist to suffice the demand for people who can't afford it. whereas i don't.

from a human perspective, if i were to die, if i can get money for my organs i'll donate, if not, i don't... either way i'm dead, so it matters not to me, so if i can get money for my family that's good, if not, why bother donating.

Me: well rich people can afford better healthcare than poor people
is that unfair?

that's if you think people donate organs because they bo pian
but people have more motives to donate than that
they donate out of altruism

MFTTW: for emergency healthcare, it is illegal to with hold if you cannot pay.

Me: that's in the US
but that results in poor people going in to emergency places only when they're really sick
and as a result premiums go up for everyone else

and the poor people get worse care than they would have had otherwise

MFTTW: how many singaporeans donate out of altuism. look at the reaction to the organs act

Me: http://ideas.repec.org/p/hhs/gunwpe/0180.html
there seems to be a crowding out effect when you pay people, but when you let people donate the payment to charity the crowding out totally disappears

MFTTW: 7 bucks
i don't mind donating 7 bucks to charity
ask me if i want to donate 50k to charity

Me: 7 bucks is for blood
organs are a different matter

and you can choose not to be paid

MFTTW: agree

organs are different
monetary value matters

i bet i can find you papers where given $5 and given $500 see how many people donate to charity

i think we differ on the point that you believe in altruism and i do not.

Me: so why do people donate organs now

MFTTW: yes poor people do get worse care than rich people, in balance

in sg? hallo? HOTA?
they don't have achoice

Me: I mean worldwide

HOTA is not the only way of donating
HOTA is opt out

the way you implement organ donation is important
you can outlaw paid donations when dead
paid donation only when you're alive
to compensate you for the pain and the expense etc

MFTTW: worldwide i don't know the %

!

ok you mean alive
i thought you meant dead

there is a limit to how many organs you can sell when alive anyway
and people balance b/w getting paid and staying alive

so i'm willing to concede the allowability of paid donations for living people

firstly i don't have a problem with HOTA

but i thought we were arguing the implentation of distributing organs
not the harvesting/availability

Me: if you legalise sales you get more organs

there will be separate markets for donations and sales

MFTTW: as long as sales are restricted to living people
and you are not taking away from the existing supply

Me: so the question now is if existing supply will be reduced
probably it will be, a little
but the net change in supply will be positive

right now people can only donate to their immediate relatives
or some shit like that right

MFTTW: i agree, existing supply through dead people is reduced very slightly

Me: why would this change with legalised sales

gah
not many people will donate even with legalised sales lor

MFTTW: haha wait till you get the black sheep of the family who refuse to donate to family and rather donate to someone else who will pay them

they should actually legalise livingdonation to strangers
ins't that allowed with bone marrow

not sure what the law in sg is wrt that
pretty sure for major organs it's family only
cos of the whole stupid pierre png fiasco

Me: then the person will get psychoed
but think about it. if the person will donate only for money, would the person donate in the first place if sales were banned? I doubt it
different factors motivating the donor

pierre png was boyfriend what
why cannot

MFTTW: i dunno. maybe can get psychoed to donate, if the option of getting paid was never on the table in the first place.

boyfriend cannot lah
relatives only
they had to get special consent

Me: cos going to marry or what shit is it
ok reason to shotgun wedding ahah

aiyah if the person doesnt want to donate to relative
but donates for money later
he will be screwed upside down

this is called social mechanisms

MFTTW: haha
people in desperate situations do stupid things lah

Me: and if the person is psychoed to donate... is that really donation?

no lor. it's being forced
which is a greater evil than paid organ sales

MFTTW: social coercion is not my problem lor. you cant legislate that either.

"were you guilted into donation by nagging mother/father/grandparents tick yes or no"

unless they hold aknife to your throat


LDPVTP: yue fei was one of my heroes in primary sch

Me: you're damn sad

LDPVTP: that was in primary sch

Me: what pri sch were you in

LDPVTP: tao nan

Me: no wonder


Someone: my fren was in cjc and in the first 3 mths, ppl wore their sec sch uniforms

a dense teacher went up to an scgs girl and said, "why are u only wearing your pinafore? slut"


Someone else: armour IS shit

all the armour officers i know are assholes
at least the regular ones

assholes or numbnuts

Me: once armour always suffer

Someone else: haha true


Someone: under IVLE Student Events:

SWINGERS PARTY

clicked on it:

wingers Party
Organizer : NUS Jazz Band, member of CFA
Description : Welcome Tea + Workshop

NABEI CHEEBYE

i want to email them to hurl abuse at them