Preamble:
What follows is a transcript (run through Otter.ai, with minimal editing - I just tagged the speakers) of the govsg video in the title.
Though speech recognition technology has made leaps and bounds in recent years, it still isn't good enough for very accurate transcripts. So take the below as a free (for you, dear reader, at least) and rough transcript, with no warranty as to accuracy - for convenience instead of an accurate transcript. Nonetheless, I believe this will be helpful, especially for archival purposes.
If anyone wants to do or pay for manual transcription (building on the below or otherwise), that would be great. I'm not going to do 9 hours of manual transcription (with more videos almost certainly on the way).
The official transcripts may well come out publicly later (the transcripts and evidence given to the committee are supposed to be confidential but everything is on YouTube: go figure; that was a very short embargo period). If they do, please use those instead. In the meantime, you may profit from the following; you can find links to all my COP transcripts at the index post.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 0:00
Okay let us resume the meeting call to order again such an advance please invite the next witness to the witness table release the first one is Mr Garcia Thank you Mr. Lim for the record please state your name occupation and positions your your home
Lim Hang Ling 0:42
okay my name is Lim hanging and self employed and I'm director of my own company
Tan Chuan-Jin: 0:50
the evidence you will be giving today before the committee will be taken on oath if you so desire can also take an affirmation clock please administer. Estimation
Lim Hang Ling 1:16
Okay, I am humbling those from the sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence which I shall give before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 1:31
Please be seated thank you can take off your mask. The Committee of privilege is looking to the complaint made by the Leader of the House Miss Indrani Raja against former member of Sengkang GRC Miss Raisa Khan, for the breach of privilege. So thank you again for attending today's hearing to give evidence before the committee and to answer the questions which members of the committee may like to put to you, you have taken a solemn obligation to answer questions truthfully. And you are under oath and or affirmation. If you refuse to answer questions directly or attempt to mislead the committee. Such behavior will be an offence and in contempt of this committee. I would like to call on Mr. Manley to proceed with questions.
Desmond Lee 2:13
Evening, Mr. Lim, thank you for attending and addressing our questions. You are the legislative assistant to the former MP for Sengkang. Miss rice. When did you start in that capacity?
Lim Hang Ling 2:28
Last year November?
Desmond Lee 2:31
And I remember the Workers Party or your card member volunteers a member of the workers or your card member card member? Yes. And prior to being the legislative assistant for Miss rice, I can Did you hold any other such role with the secretarial assistant legislative assistant or any other member of parliament? No. So it's your first time seeing an early understanding of the role of a legislative assistant as set out in the terms of reference when Parliament Secretariat makes that available to all MPs. Is that the legislative assistant helps the member of parliament with the matters that the MP deals with in Parliament such as looking at bills, preparing speeches, preparing P cues and so on and motions. Could you share with this committee what your specific role was in relation to miss rice cans? role as MP
Lim Hang Ling 3:31
Okay, for my call duty as a in commerce fail is actually not so much on doing the parliamentary work, rather is more on the grassroot activities, festive events and arranging for house visits and estate walks. So it's not it's not it's a bit different from perhaps the the actual legislative assistant call duty but in a different way serving the community as well.
Desmond Lee 4:01
As in that regard. Did you participate in any way in my Miss rice? I can't work as a legislator as a as a parliamentarian. For example, draft questions for PQ draft speeches sub event, do you play any part in that?
Lim Hang Ling 4:15
No, I don't do that. Okay. Yeah.
Desmond Lee 4:18
So when when Miss Raisa can you know? Right? So prepare the speech. You're not involved in any way?
Lim Hang Ling 4:25
No, I am not involved.
Desmond Lee 4:27
You would know that on the third of August, or would you know on the third of August, Miss ricerca made a speech in Parliament during a motion led by members, Miss hurting rule and Mr. Leon Pereira about women empowerment?
Lim Hang Ling 4:43
I only learned about it through the media.
Desmond Lee 4:46
And when did you find out about that speech was on the day itself a few days later,
Lim Hang Ling 4:50
a few days later. Well, I don't I don't usually follow the proceedings. Yeah. So usually it's after perhaps reports or maybe sometimes it's snippets from from from CNN stuff like this.
Desmond Lee 5:05
And in relation to that speech on the third of August in Parliament pursuant to that motion on women empowerment. Miss Kahn had said that in relation to the police that she accompanied a sexual assault victim 25 years old, some three years ago to the police station to make the report and that the survivor had come out the police station crying and saying that the police had passed some statements about her drinking and about her attire. You, you aware of that?
Lim Hang Ling 5:41
Also, to the media, to the media. Yes.
Desmond Lee 5:44
And when you read the media, would you also have noticed that the MP whom you serve had been asked by the Minister of State for Home Affairs, Mr. Desmond tun. Asking Miss Kahn for substantiation information about this case so that the police could investigate and put things right. Read that in the media.
Lim Hang Ling 6:09
Okay, I didn't I didn't actually go to everything. So I briefly knew that there was this exchange going on, but I'm actually the details. Magic quite vague on it.
Desmond Lee 6:19
Yes. By brought broadly aware that there was some question by Home Affairs, about allegations about the police and that she'd been asked in Parliament, Ronnie knew that
Lim Hang Ling 6:30
sort of I know, there was some exchanges, or other exchanges going on. But the details, I didn't actually read into the article and finish the whole article, but I knew that there was this thing going on, and there was some exchanges. And I think that's
Desmond Lee 6:45
it. Did you speak to Miss Kahn about those exchanges?
Lim Hang Ling 6:49
And no, actually, I did not ask her IE, I don't have a practice to actually check back on on the MPs on speeches or stuff that actually happened in Parliament.
Desmond Lee 7:02
Okay, you see a role more as a kind of a estate issues, residents issues. But since third August till now, for instance, you know, since you operate on the ground, I'm sure in the branch, you know, in the middle residents, anyone, Did anyone ask you, you know, with regards to this matter, that hey, you know, our MP had made some allegations by the police and it was in the media, the animal speak to you about that?
Lim Hang Ling 7:30
Yes. Not say speak to me, but then, um, they did us bought this thing up. And then of course, our our director, the answering part two, Miss can to actually address them.
Desmond Lee 7:45
Okay. And they she addressed them directly to the resident or the address them through, you know, to the resident, she will go direct to the resident. Yes. Which means to say that you would refer the resident the details, contact number and the question they raised to her, and she'll go back to them,
Lim Hang Ling 8:00
when usually happens when we go on our state walks? Yes,
Desmond Lee 8:05
I'm talking specifically about the third of August and the allegation against the police. No residents raise it to you. They only raised municipal issues. Not that have come. No other volunteers asked you about it.
Lim Hang Ling 8:18
Volunteers. No, no.
Desmond Lee 8:28
Subsequently, on the fourth of October, Miss Kahn, again, was in Parliament. And it was widely reported in the media and in social media, that the Home Affairs Minister Minister Shama GM had asked her again, about allegation against the police made on the third of August asking her for information about which police station what year what month, who were the police officers involved? Did you read that in the media as well? Or did you hear it from Miss Kahn or any other volunteers or Carter's or members?
Lim Hang Ling 9:05
Okay, I do know that this thing took place again, because it was quite, it was quite a thing on the on the on the news, but it's like, I thought it was a follow up on on on previous exchanges. So I didn't really read into it and really go into the details.
Desmond Lee 9:26
Subsequently, on the 20th of October, you probably have read in the newspapers that the police had said that they had approached Miss Reiser Khan to ask her to meet them to help them with their checks on
Lim Hang Ling 9:45
Social Security on the 20th
Desmond Lee 9:46
of October 22. Okay, okay. You would probably have read in the media and you can confirm whether you were aware that the police had reached out to miss Kahn to ask for a meeting and She had not replied them. Were you aware of the media?
Lim Hang Ling 10:04
No. i This part I don't think I actually read that thing. I'm not you're
Desmond Lee 10:09
not up to today you will not. You didn't know that the police put out a statement about Miss Carnes inviting Miss Kahn to meet them on the allegations. No, I
Lim Hang Ling 10:21
don't recall. You know, if
Desmond Lee 10:24
you didn't read it or you know, okay, you might read it and you don't recall I don't
Lim Hang Ling 10:29
I don't follow everything to the media. So yeah, because mostly my work is to handle the constituency work and then to get the to do mostly grassroots. So I'm in the parliamentary exchanges actually, to be honest, I don't really follow don't follow. Yeah, unless there's a big news or something that small, something big that's happening and like, that may require certain attention then perhaps my look into it more in details.
Desmond Lee 11:01
Are you aware of one miss low paying and one miss you destroy naarden? Are you familiar with them?
Lim Hang Ling 11:07
Are you Miss Lowe is Miss Kansa? Sa Yes, I know
Desmond Lee 11:14
her and Mr. UD strand naarden.
Lim Hang Ling 11:17
Mr. yudishe. I know him but I'm not very well.
Desmond Lee 11:21
Okay, young yet, at any point in time between the third of August and today. Did you speak to any one of them about the issue? That is the subject matter of today's hearing? The statements made in Parliament? Yes, I second. I did
Lim Hang Ling 11:37
I did check with paying on like, what's actually going on? Because I'm actually not very, not very in tune with the happenings and stuff like this. So because since I've been asked to come here, so I really need to check like, so what actually do I need to prepare? Or perhaps read up on and stuff like this? Oh, so
Desmond Lee 12:02
you talked about this matter to them? Only recently, and not much earlier? Now. Would you be aware of the first of November 2021, parliamentary sitting where Mr. Eisah Khan made a statement a personal explanation in Parliament, saying that on both the third of August, as well as on the fourth of October, she had said things in parliament that were untrue, and that she was now clarifying the truth. Were you aware of that media elements and the social media about it?
Lim Hang Ling 12:35
On the first of November that I that I actually followed on it? Yeah. Okay.
Desmond Lee 12:42
And you watched it live in the news? You watched it on Reddit, on social media ready on Article, news article? online article? Yes. What was your reaction?
Lim Hang Ling 12:54
I was like, it. Good that? I mean, she cheated the courage to stand up and actually share that no, there are there there are certain misrepresentation. And actually I personally, I applaud her for it. No, I mean, if we all make mistakes, so if a mistake has been made, it's always good to come back, come come back up. And, you know, admitted and try to correct whatever is wrong, and move on from there.
Desmond Lee 13:27
Yeah. So on the first of November, you do with a focus your mind that Miss Kahn had not once but on two separate occasions made false statements to Parliament will set your understanding on first November because there was what she said in Parliament.
Lim Hang Ling 13:44
Sorry, I don't really actually recall the accurate accurate words. But my my attention was actually on the apology, right. That she actually made an apology for for four for misrepresentation. And yeah, that was that was that was what I remember reading.
Desmond Lee 14:01
So at no point in time, prior to first November, did you discuss this matter with Miss Kahn, or paying or Mr. Nothern, or any other person?
Lim Hang Ling 14:10
No, no, I was not involved in the discussion.
Desmond Lee 14:14
Yet. You would, of course, by now be aware that this kind of resigned as a member of parliament and a member of the Workers Party? Yes. Did she discuss that with you or say anything to you about that?
Lim Hang Ling 14:27
She actually briefly caught me by I can't remember but I think it was like, in the afternoon on the day that she actually intended to resign and just sort of, you know, saw me out and let me know that this is happening and yep, it most probably will happen.
Desmond Lee 14:51
It will take you to the Secretary General the Workers Party statement dated first November 2021, which is before you and The clerk will just show it to you. And given that you've you know, you're not you're LA but not privy to all the discussions that have been going on. Maybe just share your immediate reaction would you make of such a statement
Lim Hang Ling 15:27
so when was known was this this
Desmond Lee 15:30
is dated first November media statement? Yes. The secretary general statement is Raisa Khan should not have shared an account that contain untruths in the house
Lim Hang Ling 15:45
or should both have this maybe read the
Desmond Lee 15:47
first one it's very short the second one is dated second November which is the Workers Party media statement forming a disciplinary panel. What's your immediate reaction to the first statement I presume you're not ready before to this your first time reading it?
Lim Hang Ling 16:20
I don't remember seeing this
Desmond Lee 16:27
so you're reading it for the first time Yeah. To the party coddle and as the legislative assistant or miscount no doubt you to municipal issues, but you are her right hand, man. Yes. Reading this statement from your secretary general as a card. What is your immediate reaction of this?
Lim Hang Ling 16:52
I think I think that the SG agility, right. And it is right for him to actually produce demand.
Desmond Lee 17:04
And reading this as a Carter your video impression be that the lead party leadership was unaware of Miss Khan's falsehoods to Parliament until this time?
Lim Hang Ling 17:19
This I cannot be sure because it doesn't say anything. Yeah, I am not privy to it.
Desmond Lee 17:25
Okay. Yes. But as a cabinet member, just looking at it, you know, your impression be that the leadership is only recently finding out about this.
Lim Hang Ling 17:34
All sorts of preferred auto spectrometers.
Desmond Lee 17:37
Thanks. And the other statement on the disciplinary panel. You will see in the second paragraph that the panel comprises three of your leaders, Secretary General chairman and vice chairman, and they will form a panel disciplinary panel to hear and inquire into miss rice cans. Conduct. Yes. Again, any any immediate reaction to that as a party card?
Lim Hang Ling 18:08
Again, I will say that it's a it's a it's a right move, because of course, is accountability. And we I believe that this is something that has to be done. And yeah, I believe it has already been done
Desmond Lee 18:23
and in as the card party Carter, you would reading this be confident that the members of the panel will have nothing to do with the falsehoods that will mean that they will be impartial and fair to miss Kahn. Would that be your assumption or what I will be using so yes. Okay. Thank you. No further questions, Jen. Thank you, Mr. Owens. Mr. Griese?
Grace Fu 18:48
Thank you, Mr. Lin. Mr. Lim, I believe you're role as the legislative assistant put you in very close contact to miss Kahn. And I'm sure her well being is also something that you are concerned with. Miss Kahn told us earlier that actually she has been very troubled by the various exchanges in the parliament. Do you see that in her being very troubled by what she has said and then the kind of question that she has received from the public?
Lim Hang Ling 19:27
Okay, I'm going by going by the stance, yes, she is definitely affected. And to some extent, I think it's actually she doesn't really show it a lot when this in public and things like this, but definitely, when I speak to her and you can hear from Mutanda she is affected by
Grace Fu 19:51
earlier on a thing. Mr. Lim Desmond Lim has talked about several instances. The first one was a speech She made in the parliament. The second one was actually a on the same day she was asked to clarify. She didn't. And then there was a subsequent speech where she was asked again, by Minister of Home Affairs Shanmugam about, you know, details and she didn't give. Did you find that she had shown some concerns in the second round? Or? She her responses are the same?
Lim Hang Ling 20:30
I'm sorry, but I did I do not take notice. And yeah, I do not take notice. I
Grace Fu 20:36
really there wasn't any difference on the ground, there weren't any residents coming forward to ask a bit more about why didn't she respond? Or what the initial reply was? Was there? Do you feel any change in?
Lim Hang Ling 20:47
No, there wasn't really much any much changes to it.
Grace Fu 20:51
So later on, she also told us that at a certain date, she was given an email by the police to basically give details, did you find that she has any tissue display any outward signs of concerns over that?
Lim Hang Ling 21:12
Not that I'm aware of.
Grace Fu 21:13
You're not aware of NASA. Okay. So eventually, she decided to make the statement on the first November admitting that, you know, she has told a lie. Does she share with you that she intends to do so before that?
Lim Hang Ling 21:28
I'm on the one day before she actually supposed to? I'm not sure whether is it to Father Father Father statement or something. But she did share with me a draft on it. That she's going to she's going to say this in Parliament?
Grace Fu 21:49
Oh, she said, a draft of a sheet with you. Yes. And how do you assess that? What she? You know, very? What's a mental state? Are she very serious? Was she very worried? When she very anxious?
Lim Hang Ling 22:08
anxious, I believe? Yes. But the beyond beyond the anxious part, perhaps some the languages or some of the wordings inside there is? I just make some suggestions to her and yeah, but I mean, in a general sense, I do not. Actually. How shall I don't interfere? Yeah.
Grace Fu 22:38
When you make those suggestions to her, do you find that she was able to take in your suggestions, or you find that she's basically made up her mind about that speech?
Lim Hang Ling 22:52
I believe more or less, she was framing up on my own it? Yes.
Grace Fu 22:57
Did she tell you that? This is a speech that she has discussed with leadership of the party or this is just her draft?
Lim Hang Ling 23:07
I did not ask and I'm not aware of further is it? Is it been discussed with other party leaders? Or any of those?
Grace Fu 23:16
Are you surprised that the next day the what Mr. Mr. Desmond Lim has shown you about the statement from the party? And also the formation of the disciplinary panel?
Lim Hang Ling 23:30
Formation disciplinary panel? No, I'm not surprised. Actually, in fact, I was looking forward to see hoping that the party will actually set a disciplinary banner.
Grace Fu 23:44
Yeah. Why were you happy to see that all you're hoping by? Do you hope to see that?
Lim Hang Ling 23:51
No, because I it's not about happy, alright. It's more about to be able to do an investigation our own and find out what actually go went on and perhaps get a closure from it?
Grace Fu 24:07
Did you ask yourself and find out for yourself since you're so close to her?
Lim Hang Ling 24:12
No, this I actually prove, I do not. As I say I do not interfere. So that in any case, my judgment or anything will not be will not be affected.
Grace Fu 24:25
So in your when you say that you hope to see a disciplinary panel being formed? Were you hoping that he will clear her name or you were hoping that you will, they will find her guilty of what she has done?
Lim Hang Ling 24:40
I'm neither of those but I just hope to to meet the whole of the panel being formed to get the truth out whichever it is.
Grace Fu 24:50
So if we tell you now that panel that's formed by the same three persons that has described her speeches with her, do you find it as an appropriate? Because Is this about truth that the panel should find should come up with? Do you find that the appropriate?
Lim Hang Ling 25:12
Um, I will not, I will not say appropriate, inappropriate, but I believe the impartiality of the party leaders and it is their duty our duty to be impartial.
Grace Fu 25:24
So, if the person has if the party leaders have been involved in advising misconduct throughout, should they be the same people that is in the disciplinary panel?
Lim Hang Ling 25:39
Okay, um, I cannot I cannot speculate, because I'm actually I'm not sure what actually transpired. But as I as I said earlier, okay, so this thing, I believe the party leaders will have to be impartial even if they have discussed this thing beforehand. They have to, yes.
Grace Fu 26:02
So do you now that Miss Kahn has to resign? Do you talk to her about whether this is something that a decision that she made on her own, or she has been advised or you think it's a fair outcome for her?
Lim Hang Ling 26:19
Whether is a fair outcome, I believe I'm not in a position to say, but I'm quite sure that this is her decision. Because before that, she actually caught me up and told me that it's gonna happen, and the most probably will happen
Grace Fu 26:37
is you have to ask her why she has to resign.
Lim Hang Ling 26:42
I did not go into the details, because I can hear from her voice that she is actually disappointed and said, so I just took it at face value. And that's it.
Grace Fu 26:55
She's a person that you have worked with very closely, you have been trying very hard to me, you work very hard to your it's your role to try to connect her with the ground, and to have her resigned in to try to ask her why
Lim Hang Ling 27:14
we actually thought of this thing before she actually before the resignation thing actually came on. So on and off, we actually have some conversation on this thing and discussion on this, like, what are the probabilities? And what if it come to pass and stuff like this? So I mean, I shared my view with her quite many times beforehand. So I believe it was, it will be her. It will be her decision. And I leave it up to her, if she finds that this is the best course of action are supported. Yes.
Grace Fu 27:50
What are your views that you shared with her because Earlier you told us that you didn't talk go into details, you leave it to her, but now you tell us that you shared your views many times with her. So what have you
Lim Hang Ling 28:03
during the during the so called after this, the disciplinary panel has been set up. And also because of certain things that we understand, like, what is happening from from from public, we read the Facebook posts and stuff like this, and we also see what's happening on the social medias. So sometimes they start we our just share with her like, you know, perhaps we might have a bigger problem and and there might there might come a point that you either have to resign or you know, there might be some drastic action that you have to take. And yeah, we do discuss when when when all the all the news and social media stuff when it comes in.
Grace Fu 28:51
So you find that she you find that her decision to resign has been there or you find that there's been a change in her decision
Lim Hang Ling 29:03
that I cannot speak for her because she has never told me her actual view or what she's actually intending to do.
Grace Fu 29:12
You have just said that you discuss the option of
Lim Hang Ling 29:15
vaccination No, no, not the option of resignation, but to just share that perhaps there might be a probability that this might go to this particular direction
Grace Fu 29:25
and what was my response to that
Lim Hang Ling 29:27
response was to look at the situation and what we whatever is available as what I get from her. Thank you. Thank you.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 29:43
A question, Mr. Donnelly.
Don Wee 29:46
Hi, Mr. Lim. To the best of your knowledge when does Workers Party have a very strict protocols for their MPs to follow, or procedures to follow in the event? Their MPs face challenging situations. So let me repeat, does Workers Party have a strict set of protocols or procedures for their MPs to follow? In the event? They face difficult situations?
Lim Hang Ling 30:17
facing difficult situation in the in the sense that is in this doing constituency walk about or is it was the
Don Wee 30:27
any or in this context? tooting, do you think your party leadership? Leadership is well aware?
Lim Hang Ling 30:36
I actually don't have the I don't have the details. Okay. On on the party leadership, but on the ground, we do have some response to with on the on the division, yes.
Tan Chuan-Jin: 31:02
Keep there no further questions for now. We'd like to thank you for coming before the committee transcript the proceedings will be shared with you for verification, so do go through it. If any amendments please do make changes and send the transcripts back to us. Do note that the transcripts and any evidence given to the committee are not to be disclosed to anyone or published and must be kept strictly confidential until the committee has presented his report to parliament meaning that you also not to discuss what transpired here with others as well. So with that, our staff can accompany you to the waiting room. So once again, thank you very much such an adult's please accompany the witness. Thank you
