Stephen Tomkins On The Mayflower

Stephen Tomkins On The Mayflower | HistoryExtra Podcast - HistoryExtra

"‘There were all kinds of other traditions that had grown up over time, such as using the sign of the cross. That's not mentioned in the Bible. So the Puritans said we have to get rid of that. Whereas the church wanted to keep it. Stained glass, not mentioned in the Bible. Puritans said, we have to get rid of that. Any kind of ornamentation in church decoration that's not mentioned in the Bible, any practices.

So baptism and communion are mentioned in the Bible, so we keep those, but any kinds of rituals that have grown up around them like having godparents who make promises on behalf of the children who have been baptized, they wanted to get rid of that. So it's really kind of streamlining the church, scaling it back again, simplifying everything. So more focus on sermons, more focus on the Bible, getting rid of any other traditions. The Puritans also, they had suffered under the rule of bishops who were imposing their authority on the church and they found the rule of Bishops an obstacle to getting what they wanted in the church.

So they also looked in the Bible and said hah, no bishops in the Bible either. So let's get rid of the bishops. So a lot of Puritans were just happy to get rid of the robes and that kind of thing. More radical Puritans joined the Presbyterian movement that's getting rid of Bishops and having a more egalitarian structure, where ministers and local churches, they're in charge of their own church, but there's no Bishop or hierarchy above them to work with each other in synods, to control the church.

Now the the separatists... really split away from the church and ended up getting on the Mayflower and going to North America. They had an even more radical version than that. The separatists came up with what's called the congregational theory of churches, which was that the people rule the church, not the ministers. So as Robert Brown, separatist leader put it, the voice of the people is the voice of God. So instead of the minister being in charge, the people decide everything.’

‘So it was a more democratic approach to religion.’…

’Also a lot of people would assume stereotypical image of a Puritan would be quite, one of a severe, austere, joyless lifestyle. Is that a fair representation? Or is that a myth that's grown up afterward?’

‘Well, to be fair, Puritans did like disapproving of stuff. That was one of their, their main features, was disapproving of things. So there is that. But when you look at the first meetings of the underground church, they, they met together in a pub, they worshiped and they got through plenty of food and drink in the time they were together, they collected money and distributed it to those who had need and then afterwards, they went to watch a play, which, these are the kind of things that maybe later generations of Puritans might have disapproved of. But you know, there's some variety in there.’...

‘The general assumption I think about those in the Mayflower is that they were going to America to flee persecution. But you make an interesting assertion in the book that we shouldn't view fleeing persecution as the primary motive.’

‘You could certainly say they left England to escape persecution. They went, whether to Scotland, to Amsterdam, to Leiden, they were doing that to escape persecution. And they also believed that God was leading them to a new place and they were following God in doing that. But yes, they did that because they were persecuted at home. But in Amsterdam, in Leiden, they didn't face persecution. That they had their difficulties, but they had all the toleration you could possibly ask for in there. So they didn't leave the Netherlands to escape persecution. So we have to find a different motivation [which was they were fussy]...

I think they find it quite hard to articulate their reasons for leaving Netherlands, for North America, but my understanding of it is you have a deeply ingrained sense that you have to go forward, even if it's this terrifying leap in the dark’