"If you look good and dress well, you don't need a purpose in life." - Robert Pante

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Grumblings on the never-ending efforts to perpetuate the MLM scam (aka Christian evangelism) which perpetually afflicts Young Republic:

A: Actually I think the real problem with proselytising is not that it includes unsubstantiated assertions, since there are many occasions where one may seek to change the opinions of others without necessarily having iron-clad proof for everything one is saying.

For example, I may try to persuade someone else that we need more generous welfare provision, and in so doing I may appeal to notions such as fairness, justice, equality of opportunity, etc etc, for which no special 'substantiation' or proof can be given. That is, the ideas on which I base my appeal cannot be said to be beyond doubt or re-evaluation.

The same applies if I try to persuade someone else of, for example, the need to protect minority language rights, or to preserve a part of architectural heritage, etc.

Ppl get annoyed by evangelists for two reasons:

a) Ppl often get the feeling that they are emotionally manipulated. For example, evangelists may befriend someone, but with the ultimate/added intention of converting them. This does not mean that their friendship is insincere, but still, ppl in general like to think that their virtues -- as opposed their eternal soul -- are the reason why others befriend them.

b) Christianity, and monotheistic religions in general, are total ideologies which, if accepted, expect to assume a central -- if not paramount -- role in the lives of adherents. In the Calvinist form which it commonly takes in S'pore, Christianity also tends to denigrate the christianity-less lives of non-believers (I believe the Calvinist formulation is "total depravity"). In its fundamentalist form, also one of the most common forms to be found in S'pore, it also takes on an uncompromising and 'flat' aspect, which makes it appear unpalatable and simplistic. Also, evangelists tend to be excessively sure of the truth of their convictions (which they think is 'faith'). This makes them appear arrogant and also makes arguing with them frustrating. What I mean is that all of us have some personal experience of life and have formed our own conclusions and evolved our own responses. To have someone come along and, with a smiling face, trash all of that and instead propose a small set of assertions which will somehow solve everything and indeed *is* everything -- and that
if not accepted will result in eternal hellfire -- is generally insulting and annoying.

So it is not the lack of substantiation but the flatness, totality, demandingness and unwillingness to engage in real discussion which annoy.

> Evangelism is an integral part of
> the Christian message.

Well, yes and no -- this depends on what you mean by evangelism. An evangelism which proclaims 'believe in Jesus and the literal and inerrant truth of the Bible or you shall burn eternally in hellfire' is very different from an evangelism which says 'the Christian faith tradition and Christian ethics present a unique and important voice, and potentially an enriching and transformative life experience.' Liberal Christians see no need to diss other ideologies wholesale, nor to resort to threats of eternal punishment and hellfire. If you think liberal Christianity is ahistorical, you may also consider the pre-Vatican II RC view of evangelism as a spread of the Church militant -- a church and parish priest, and finally even a diocesan structure with a bishop, in formerly 'pagan' territory as the ultimate goal and emblem of evangelisation. This view, based on the understanding that instituting a Christian culture would be the best way to protect the religious freedom of Christians and to facilitate the practice of Christian ethics, is clearly at odds with the form of evangelism fundies have in mind.

> The minute I tell you what I believe and you listen,
> evangelism is going on. It's no different from people on this list
> suggesting than NS should be scrapped because it infringes on certain
> fundamental human rights. Nobody formulates and holds that opinion with the
> intention of keeping it to himself; if they did, I would doubt the sincerity
> of their belief.

I agree, but as I said, this is not what is wrong with evangelism as it is often encountered in S'pore. I certainly agree that trying to persuade someone else of something, even if that something is an opinion and cannot be completely backed up by 'facts' is not in itself inappropriate. But that is not the point.

B: And as such, do we get to attempt to deconvert christians or other religions?

You do realise that people on this list don't go on an anti-religion tirade until someone decides to start spouting evangelitical crap. Most of us signed onto this list to argue about "NS, democracy, free speech etc", not to listen to the so-called "good news" shoved down our collective gullets, as religious zealots attempt to weave their religion, thundering "MY GOD IS GOOD!!!!" into every arguement written here, be it on "NS, democracy, free speech etc".


As for me, I figured that watching the latest Power Rangers SPD episode, playing Rome: Total War and wringing my wrists about the Bloggers.SG T-shirts was a much better, more enjoyable and productive way to spend my time. Or perhaps the placidity I've been enjoying since my return from the States, which may be due to serendipity has something to do with it. Which reminds me: I better settle the T-shirts before I go off for the NUS ENS camp (I'm helping out as a minion).

Nonetheless, my arsenal is readied for the next debacle which witnesses the degeneration of debate into evangelism (this time, somehow talk of Science was painted as an attempt at mob-lynching, which does tell you something about the other side).

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

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Things you always wanted to know, but never got around to asking:

What's the purpose of washers (the round metal things)?

"A humble flat washer is used for many purposes, some proper and some not. The two most common proper purposes are:

* To distribute the pressure of the nut or bolt evenly over the part being secured, reducing the chance of damage thereto, and
* To provide a smooth surface for the nut or bolt to bear on, making it less likely to loosen as a result of an uneven fastening surface."

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Site feedback:

"Just want to say that not all sc girls are slutty or whatever you mentioned. Though I won't deny that there are some who are like that, they only make up a small percentage of the student population. Most of them are in fact very sincere and modest.

Next time, do watch what you post on this site.

Have a nice day."

Since when has quoting various people's opinions constituted endorsing them?! Gah.

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Noah's Ark allegedly found:

"And so it was - while there were the rare accounts of Ark sighting and the procurement of ancient, crafted wood from the heights of Mt Ararat, no one had been able to visually document the vessel itself. Thus it was really suprising that this feat was ultimately achieved by Mr Yuen and his team - a team, which originally, was supposed to be a tag-along to a team of 30 scientists from the States who set out to find the Ark in response to satilite images"

There is a reason why the putative ark's existence and authenticity has never been verified independently.

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Mimi Spencer takes a look at French women's eating habits

"According to established lore and several new books (the latest is French Women Don't Get Fat by Mirielle Guiliano), if you really want to kiss your ass goodbye, you should take a lesson from the French.

Despite a diet stuffed with cream, butter, cheese and meat, just 10 per cent of French adults are obese, compared with our 22 per cent, and America's colossal 33 per cent. The French live longer too, and have lower death rates from coronary heart disease - in spite of those artery-clogging feasts of cholesterol and saturated fat. This curious observation, dubbed 'the French paradox', has baffled scientists for more than a decade.

In Chic and Slim: How Those French Women Eat all that Rich Food and Still Stay Slim, Anne Barone seeks to unravel the puzzle. As it turns out, it's all about knickers. 'Never underestimate the power of a black lace garter belt,' she writes. 'Even French women's lingerie helps to keep them slim, [it's] a constant reminder to make choices that pay off in slimness. Their belief in this principle is demonstrated by the fact that there are almost as many lingerie shops in Paris as bakeries.' Vanity, it seems, is a very useful vice if you want to fight the flab."