A: *photo of There's Nothing Left to Debate on COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids | Time*
Me: This is a very 1776 freedom land view
Sweden decides against recommending COVID vaccines for kids aged 5-11 | Reuters Why are we vaccinating children against COVID-19? - ScienceDirect
Vaxhole:Can update your news a bit?
It's
outdated to the extent that JCVI is literally no longer - I quote your
quoted article here - 'largely opposed' to Covid vaccination for
children under 16.
Also,
a research paper that takes its data set from VAERS?! This must be some
high level April's Fools joke cos you can't polish this kind of turd
enough to make it shine.
Can
also explain what is 1776 freedom land view? Cos it sounds like Star
Wars but also Star Trek. Like a Wookiee appeared in the Starship
Enterprise kind of view point. Thanks in advance.
Me: Ok, I wasn't aware that the JCVI had changed their advice in February
Just
because I quote a paper does not mean I agree 100% with everything in
it. That paper provides some information about covid risk for kids and
makes points about possible long term harms
If you prefer, here is a paper that notes that covid is less severe for kids than the flu
But it doesn't make some of the points that I mentioned above, so it was easier to just mention the earlier paper
I
try not to mention country names (among other things) on fb. I've been
zucced twice for saying that people from 1776 freedom land are lacking
in knowledge and wisdom (once when I added spaces to evade the
algorithms - it must have been a manual report to spite me)
I
spent just over a third of 2021 zucced. Nowadays I'm very careful and I
haven't been zucced since November so clearly my caution is paying off
Healthy Children Don’t Need Covid Vaccines - WSJ
"The
Sunshine State is bucking the public-health consensus again. “The
Florida Department of Health is going to be the first state to
officially recommend against the Covid-19 vaccines for healthy
children,” Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo announced...
He
is merely acknowledging the abundant scientific evidence that Covid-19
poses a negligible risk to healthy children, which makes it impossible
to know if the benefit of vaccination outweighs the risk.
Start
with the exceedingly low likelihood of severe illness or death. A
recent study in the Lancet estimated the infection fatality rate for
those under 18 at between 0.0023% and 0.0085%—meaning 2.3 to 8.5 of
every 100,000 children who get infected will die. Rates are lowest among
those 5 to 11...
Polio
paralyzes 1 in 200 infected children, and the fatality rate for measles
ranges between 0.1% to and 0.3%. That’s why childhood vaccinations are
recommended for both. The risk of hospitalization from the flu for
children 5 to 11 is 50% higher than from Covid and the related
multisystem inflammatory syndrome combined. MIS in rare instances can
cause gastrointestinal and cardiovascular symptoms after infection...
The
Food and Drug Administration granted emergency-use authorization last
October for Pfizer’s vaccine for children 5 to 11 after a small trial
(about 1,500 kids received Covid shots) found it was 90% effective at
preventing symptomatic illness. But the vaccine’s efficacy rapidly
waned, even more so than in adults, especially as the Omicron variant
spread...
Vaccine
efficacy against infection, meanwhile, turned negative during the
Omicron surge a month after kids were inoculated (minus 10%) and
declined even more after six weeks (minus 41%). This means vaccinated
children were significantly more likely to catch Covid than the
unvaccinated. How can that be? One possible explanation is that the
unvaccinated may have been more likely to have been previously infected,
and natural immunity is more protective than vaccines.
But
this makes vaccinating children even more senseless. The vast majority
have already been infected. The CDC estimates that 58% of children under
18 had infection-induced antibodies as of January, based on commercial
laboratory blood samples.
This
is almost certainly an underestimate. Antibodies have probably faded in
those who were infected earlier in the pandemic, and a study in the
Journal of the American Medical Association found 63% of children under
18 who tested positive for the virus on PCR tests didn’t generate
antibodies in their blood. Unlike the current crop of vaccines, prior
infection stimulates mucosal immunity—including antibodies in the saliva
and nasal passages—that can provide a strong barrier to infection.
As
for risks, there’s no evidence that Pfizer’s vaccine causes long-term
harm to children. But its trial enrolled too few children to discern
very rare adverse events, which could exceed the risks from the virus.
Some 40% of children 5 to 11 reported systemic reactions after their
second shot (e.g., fatigue, headache, fever). About 10% missed school,
and 1% needed medical care.
Such
literal headaches may be worth enduring for adults, but it’s far from
clear they are for children. One nontrivial risk that should concern
public-health officials is that side effects from Covid shots could make
children and parents wary of other vaccines...
Germany,
Norway and Sweden don’t recommend vaccines for healthy children under
12, and the Danish Pediatric Society has urged its government to follow
suit. The public-health consensus has been wrong time and again during
the pandemic"
Vaxhole: Can we have some standards?
------z
The WSJ's opinion piece by Allysia Finley... Who is she? What is this gish gallop.
"Allysia Finley is a member of the Journal's Editorial Board.
Ms.
Finley joined The Wall Street Journal in 2009 after graduating from
Stanford University with a bachelor’s degree in American Studies. During
college, she edited the opinions section for The Stanford Review and
wrote columns for The Orange County Register."
A
quick look shows her articles on Covid all go against the grain of
medical advice from actual medical experts. I don't take serious medical
advice from my newpaper editor or lawyer or banker or barber. You
shouldn't too.
And yes. Florida Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo. He easily does a good job of discrediting himself.
Standards pls.
------
Also,
you don't agree 100% with everything in that garbage research paper
that uses VAERS as their primary data set. But you say that paper
provides some information about Covid risk for kids and makes points
about possible long term harms. Where is this risk data coming from?
VAERS?!
Which parts of the paper do you not agree with? The non-VAERS parts?!
------
Lastly,
okie understood the 1776 freedom land whatever thing to mean America. I
don't see what that has to do with anything though.
------
There
are also many reasons why we should vaccinate as much of a population
as possible. One of which is to prevent transmissions from child to
parents which can start a whole chain. Herd immunity.
Can we just skip to the part where you just come out and say you are an anti-vaxxer?
It'll save everyone quite a bit of time. Thanks
Me: Can you address the claims in the WSJ article rather than poisoning the well?
To look at some of the claims in the article:
"A
recent study in the Lancet estimated the infection fatality rate for
those under 18 at between 0.0023% and 0.0085%—meaning 2.3 to 8.5 of
every 100,000 children who get infected will die. Rates are lowest among
those 5 to 11."
This is literally quoting a peer reviewed study published in the Lancet
If
you're going to groundlessly claim that she was misquoting the paper,
don't. I have compared her numbers with the point estimates in Table 1
COVID-19 IFR estimates by age and they match up
"The
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports there were 66
Covid-19 deaths among children 5 to 11 between Oct. 3, 2020, and Oct. 2,
2021—exactly the same number as died from suicide, which is exceedingly
rare among this age group—in 2019. By comparison, there were 969 deaths
in this age group from unintentional injury and 207 from homicide in
2019."
Again, this is exactly what the CDC reports
"the fatality rate for measles ranges between 0.1% to and 0.3%."
This is about the same as what the Infectious Diseases Society of America tells us
Evidently
the Lancet, the CDC and the Infectious Diseases Society of America (all
3 sources of which are linked in the article) are not good enough for
your "standards"
Since
you once again refuse to do your homework and just slime articles you
disagree with, here is where the Toxicology Reports article gets its
data on covid risk to kids from:
"Fig. 1. COVID-19 Deaths per capita by age in the United States (as of Jun 5, 2021). Population-based on U.S. CDC WONDER Bridge-Race Population Estimate 2019. Data obtained from https://wonder.cdc.gov/bridged-race-v2019.html on 6/15/2021. Provisional COVID-19 deaths based on CDC data provided by the National Center for Health Statistics for the period 1/1/2020 – 6/5/2021. Data obtained from https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku on 6/10/2021."
For the avoidance of doubt - no, this is not VAERS
Ironic
that you misunderstand the article and then dismiss it based on your
misunderstanding. I wonder who the one lacking in knowledge and
ignorance is here
Again ironically, you are unaware of the science about covid vaccines not reducing transmission
Effect of Covid-19 Vaccination on Transmission of Alpha and Delta Variants | NEJM
"Vaccine-associated reductions in transmission of the delta variant were smaller than those with the alpha variant... The reductions in transmission of the delta variant declined over time after the second vaccination, reaching levels that were similar to those in unvaccinated persons by 12 weeks in index patients who had received ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 and attenuating substantially in those who had received BNT162b2"
So
after 12 weeks, Astra-Zeneca had no effect on transmission of delta and
Pfizer reduced transmission by only 24%. Doubtless with even more time,
efficacy in reduction of transmission would be even greater
Annelies
Wilder-Smith, a member of The Lancet Commission on COVID-19, and a
consultant to WHO writing in The Lancet. Infectious Diseases, notes that
"the vaccine effect on reducing transmission is minimal in the context
of delta variant circulation"
As an article in the British Medical Journal notes,
What do we know about covid vaccines and preventing transmission? | The BMJ
"Vaccine
effectiveness against infection, hospital admission, and mortality have
all taken a hit when pitted against the omicron variant, and it seems
only logical that the impact against transmission would likewise drop.
And
even if it were true that vaccination did reduce transmission, it is
not clear that vaccinating children to protect adults is justified
Anti-vaxxers Rachel Gur-Arie from the Berman Institute of Bioethics at Johns Hopkins University,
Steven
R. Kraaijeveld from Wageningen University & Research and Euzebiusz
Jamrozik from the Oxford-Johns Hopkins Global Infectious Disease Ethics
Collaborative and the Wellcome Centre for Ethics and Humanities note
that:
"it
is currently unclear whether routine COVID-19 vaccination of healthy
children is ethically justified in most contexts, given the minimal
direct benefit that COVID-19 vaccination provides to children, the
potential for rare risks to outweigh these benefits and undermine
vaccine confidence, and substantial evidence that COVID-19 vaccination
confers adequate protection to risk groups, such as older adults,
without the need to vaccinate healthy children"
Yes,
I am an "anti-vaxxer" because I am against mandatory vaccination of
children. You better let the health authorities in Germany, Norway and
Sweden know that they are "anti-vaxxers" too.
It's weird how vaxholes don't believe the vaccines work
Vaxhole: Okay. You're right. I'm wrong. Our government is wrong. Everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. You've built an argument so well research and water tight that it's a crime you haven't been recognized as an expert in this field. Why the heck aren't world leaders lining up to seek your sagely advice is really a question on everybody's minds now.
Germany, Norway and Sweden are right like they have always been. Maybe they had consulted you in secret, you Germano-Norwegian-Swede deep state world savior you. All other countries mandating vaccines for kids based on their own panels of experts are wrong, overstepping freedoms (wait was this why you brought up freedom land? Am confused) and evil. The Covid risk for kids are so low that vaccine mandates for kids will doom mankind cos of the possible long term effects and ethical concerns.
Me: So much projection...
Vaxhole: No no no not as much as you!
No
one can be greater than you. Not our local experts or government. Our
locals pale in comparison to Germany, Norway and Sweden who are better
and never have been wrong before because they understand and accepted
your position not to mandate vaccinations for kids. Also possible long
term effects! This one's really a big one that will doom us all. It's
only 2 years in after all.
I don't personally know him but pre-covid I saw his comments around and he didn't seem cuckoo. I wonder how many people's brains have been fried by covid.