It's popular to think politicians/the powerful are the ones dividing us and without them it'd be kumbaya, but politicians/the powerful aren't any more evil than the rest of us
A: Aung San Suu Kyi: The inside story
I've always felt disquieted by her, and saw her various acts as signs of her being power-hungry, rather than sacrificing/ suffering in the name of her people.
Back when she was the darling of the global human rights movement, such a pariah's view was met with animosity and outright condemnation.
It is sad that the entire Rohingya crisis is proving this view correct, a view that her staunchest international supporters like Bill Richardson (former US ambassador), Evan Williams (journalist with special access to her), UN HR Commission etc are all waking up to.
Perhaps this was why the junta allowed elections. They knew that with her in power, all that changes is that they would gain an additional veneer of legitimacy.
B: Most Burmese see the Rohingya differently than the rest of the world.
So it’s questionable if there’s any political utility in siding with outsiders and affirming that position instead of what is popular in country.
Also it’s entirely possible she shares the same view of the Rohingya.
A: There is no political utility.
But the expectation is that human rights should trump "political utility".
Also, regardless of whether the Rohingya are illegal immigrants, they don't deserve genocide/ mass rape etc.
B: Most Burmese may not want that (genocide/rape) for the Rohingya but they probably still want them gone.
A: Yah if someone goes to another person's house and overstays their welcome, they can be asked to leave or even forcibly evicted. But genocide and widespread systematic rape is not likely on the cards, much less accepted.
I wish more of the Myanmese would stand up against this.
C: Unfortunately Myanmese supported this.
B: I don’t think there is any nice way of evicting the Rohingya.
D: With the military presence, the casualties of the Rohingya vs the Rakhine are probably 10 to 1 but without the military it's probably 1 to 1.5. The military is not always there all the time.
That's probably why Burmese don't speak as they think they should be siding their own people instead.
E: Everyone is entitled to their views, i understand.. but i sincerely believe that we should know an issue in depth before we jump to conclusions.. of 100 ppl talking abt this issue, how many of them have actually gone on the ground to see the real situation?? How many are just swallowing the news that see as gospel without conducting any type of checks..
Its easy yo demonize one side and pity another when all you've been presented is one sided stories.. many a times when i talk abt local news/politics, Singaporeans have told me to mind my own business or even to shut up abt issues that is not in my country.. well at least when i talk abt issues in SG, I'm actually here and seeing/experiencing what's happening first hand..
How many here talking abt Rohingya crisis have been in country? How many have actually seen the Rohingya? How many have spoken to the locals in the conflict zone?
And i fully expect for ppl to come out of the woodworks to berate me.. according to some, as long as I'm a Burmese, i MUST be supporting the things happening there..
D: The issue to me wasn't the Rohingya vs Rakhine or military since like many conflicts around the world like the Israel-Palestine conflict, is deeply rooted.
What was more appalling to the international community was the arrests of foreign journalists going to the area. You tell them not to judge by hearsay and they went to see for themselves, but were prevented. Arresting journalists is a favourite tag that the west will pin the label "dictatorship" on, and the last person people would expect this from was Daw Aung.
E: actually in the conflict zone, the decision to keep reporters back is from the military..
In conflict zone its hard to guarantee anyone's safety.. if they go in and get themselves in trouble, who is gonna get them out? Don't forget, the army isn't the only armed group down there.. if the govt unable to get the reporters out, guess who will the international community blame?? That's the issue with these ppl.. all they do is criticise and comment.. if the international community is so worried about the Rohingya, why is no one else volunteering to take them in?? Just in case the Burmese aren't bluffing eh??
If i was one of the troops there, i wouldn't wanna babysit reporters as well
D: So it's a damn if you do, damn if you don't. People don't find out for themselves Burmese will say they lack understanding and comment blindly, journalists do that Burmese will say it's to prevent all these victimisation.
F: I have spoken to Burmese people about this and I'm told that the rape and violence started from the Muslim Rohingya commiting atrocities towards the Buddhist citizens.
They refuse to learn the language and want a seperate state. Myanmar didn't agree and they incited violence and play victim in the international community.
How true is this all? I don't know..
E: its basically a chicken or egg first situation la.. its true that they refuse to integrate, demand land as their own and usually don't follow local laws..
And yes there has been a string of rapes and violent crimes in the area and it happens on both sides of the fence.. but things like that don't get into MSM.. they don't really make for good reading.. now a modern day "exodus".. that grabs attention
G: Myanmar people needs to understand that there are decent and human solutions to solving disputes. Rape and murder and atrocities cannot be justified and there is no way Myanmar people can stand up as a proud nation if they condone such acts of inhumanity.
Daw is now a populist politician and not a Human rights activist anymore.
Daw will go down in the history book as Robert Mugabe. Someone who turned from Jedi to Darth Vader
H: Humanity, as a whole, has moved past the era when rape and murder was a justifiable means of achieving political goals.
B: Outside of the first world apparently not, which is where most of humanity is.
So not sure what metrics you are using for "humanity as a whole".
Me: Even in the third world they need to pretend that there's no rape and murder
E: And in the first world they swallow everything thrown at them from MSM..
Me: Some might say in the third world they believe government propaganda unquestioningly
E: some might say in the third world, they actually go on the ground to fact check..
G: And they've checked that there was murders and rapes. So what does the Myanmar people say?
E: look at the reports properly..
Videos showing pitiful plights of women who were raped and beaten and claim their attackers broke their jaw.. seem to be talking fine to the interviewers only a day or so after their attack.. photos of crying baby but the mother pinching the child's arm.. many blindly sharing photos supposedly from the conflict area but a quick reverse image search showed the images were from conflict elsewhere
G: you are so heartless. The UN Secretary General don't lie.
A: News articles abound about the systemic rapes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/07/world/asia/myanmar-rohingya-rape-refugees-childbirth.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/silent-pain-rohingya-rape-survivors-babies-quietly-emerge/2018/07/05/27922898-800c-11e8-a63f-7b5d2aba7ac5_story.html?utm_term=.f0965efcbb6a&noredirect=on
E: kofi annan was appointed to look into the situation.. a day before he could present his findings, guess wad happened?? Rohingya militants attacked.. apparently wadever he was going to present didn't sit well with the plotters and schemers of the rohingya side..
western media have their agendas.. they talk abt oppression in certain countries and conveniently forget the oppression happening in their allied countries.. keywords : oil & arabs
A: Ok so which of it is the case for Myanmar? Are the Western media (whoever they are) pointing out the atrocities because of oil or Arabs in this instance?
Me: Western media the Bangkok Post on the problems faced by the rohingya
*link*
Western media Al jazeera on the suffering of the rohingya
*link*
Western media the Japan Times on the persecution of the rohingya
*link*
E: we have oil.. and gems, and lumber.. way i see it, soemthing for everyone to take a piece of if they play up the "genocide" and go in to "liberate" the "oppressed" if u get my drift
Here.. from Thai, on the ground.. not agencies with agendas
and here.. from a Malaysian..
pls tell me when you'd like a ship load of them sent to ur doorstep..
G: So when the western media helped Aung Sang lady fight against the military junta, it was correct. And now that she has won the Myanmar election, the western media is not correct anymore.
E: it takes 2 hands to clap..did u think this situation came about simply because the Rohingya existed? While u are berating the way the Burmese in the region treat the Rohingya, do u know what the Rohingya did in the first place?? Where were u when the Rohingya marched into town and started burning and pillaging?? Find out what caused the issue before jumping on the bandwagon..
Shame on me?? Shame on YOU.. would u like it if i broke into ur home, broke every possible law, all the while being an unregistered illegal resident?
lets put it this way, if u and i are residing in a rural region where there is no legal recourse or even any form of law and u kill one of my family members..I'll do everything in my power to get even...
Don't sit in a developed country, safely protected by rule of law and legislations and question if the actions of those who have none of that is justified..
If u grew up in the environment they did, u would do the same.. I'm willing to bet my life on it..
But since u are used to the cushy, safe life here, if u can't empathize with what they are going thru, at the very least don't demonize the ones who have had the misfortune of going thru the pain of having a loved one murdered with nothing done to the perpetrators..
What a sad bunch of armchair politicians and moralists we have here.. too used to the safe and "right" lifestyles they have here that they think they've earned the right to pass judgement on others going thru something they've not even seen in their worst nightmares..
When all is said and done, if u guys get thrown into the same situation as the ppl ur judging, you'd do the same, if not worse..
put ur family in the region to be attacked and killed by them.. then we'll see how much love u have left in ur heart... 😁 its easy to talk abt love and understanding when ur sitting safe with ur family..
A: I think the perspective that most of us are approaching this from is:
1. The Rohingya may have done wrong. But the retaliation (even if that is correct) is completely disproportionate. It is not a one for one. Last year's outbreak was due to them killing 9 police officers. And in return at least 700k of them are displaced now (not sure what the numbers of dead/ raped are).
2. You talk about lawlessness of the Rohingya, but the ones who perpetuated the greatest lawlessness and continue to perpetuate it (long after the Rohingya are crushed) are the military and the Myanmese who support their actions.
E: 1) did u know that after the killing of the officers, there was widespread chaos in the area that resulted in the death of more civilians? Did u also know that buddhist civilan volunteers who went to the region to help (both parties) were killed? Have u seen the video of the Burmese mother whose one and only 16 yr old son was killed when he went to help with the relief efforts??
None of the "unbiased" media showed any of that because it doesn't further their agenda..
Also, when there is a conflict, many who do not want to be a part of it will leave.. would u like to leave ur family in a conflict zone of which u want no part of??
2) u claim the Burmese (no such thing as myanmese btw, u wanna talk abt the issue at least get the name of the ppl u wanna talk abt right.. see what i mean when i say many ppl tend to talk abt something they know very little abt?) are the ones who perpetuate greatest lawlessness.. and u base that on what?? The pictures and "news" that are being shared around that I've already debunked to u yesterday?
B: there is the UN intervention card where an external power intervenes and forces everyone to get along.
But it’s telling that the international community doesn’t see that an option worth taking, because then they will be saddled with needing to be there long term.
There’s utility in stabilising Wakandaland or Bosnia... but what’s the ROI in pacifying the Rakhine state?
No cards to play.
I: your position seems to be based on the idea that there was a degree of lawlessness in the region that led to the some members of the Rohingya committing violent crimes, and that this needed to be addressed. Why wouldn't trying to impose law and order there (ie: protect all sides, punish perpetrators of crimes), rather than attack a community wholesale, be a viable option though?
A: E, you said people are entitled to their opinions, but your view is that those opinions are rubbish because they don't have firsthand knowledge.
In this case, I don't know specifically who was raped/ killed by whom and when. I am informed however that widespread and systematic rapes/ murders took place. Is that not enough for a call to action?
No one thinks that they are subject experts either. But again, that should not stop people from wanting to learn more, and to discuss more.
If you are aware of different accounts of what is factually happening, why not tell us instead of making these bald assertions that the news reports are all fake/ wrong or based on some unknown agenda.
Share with us so we can all learn more.
E: regardless of how long a person has been in country,if they refuse to integrate AND refuse to submit to a registry (for births/deaths etc) for some kind of identification to be issued to them, they legally can't be considered locals..
they can accept citizenship and submit to the registry.. but they have no wish to follow local laws and want to govern themselves with another nation's land..
B: It’s arguable they wouldn’t be in their current predicament if they didn’t play some political cards badly.
At the end of the day when you have no cards to deal that can give you solid leverage, you aren’t going to get a lot of concessions beyond Facebook likes and people being angry but not angry enough to actually do anything about it.
[Bangladesh] don’t have the resources to handle the influx.
Also saying the gates are open is akin to announcing a free for all house party- no country wants to look like that.
But it’s clear the “temporary” refugee camps are going to be permanent.
On the Burmese side those who stayed behind are also being shifted into concentration camps.
A realpolitik read of all this seems to indicate that Burma is making a rather premeditated strategic move to solve the Rohingya issue once and for all- drive as many as possible to Bangladesh and put those that are left into concentration camps where they can’t cause problems, maybe with a long term plan to offload them into Bangladesh or scatter them around.
Right or not, this is the way the game is going to be placed.
E: can't be helped.. its a damn shame.. but the country has problems of her own and no govt is going to allocate resources in order to cater for a portion of the population that is point blank refusing to submit to its sovereignty and has next to zero contributions..